1. Joined
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    05 Aug '22 22:17
    @kellyjay said
    I think opinions need to be looked at individually, not according to who says them, but the soundness of the logic used, and the sources quoted. My opinion and anyone else’ should not be viewed according to who says what, instead how inline with the truth of reality is it? To reject anything by definition only without examination isn’t even addressing the topic, instead by prejudice.
    So how sound is the logic used, and how near to the truth of reality would you say is someone who completely ignores all scientific evidence for hominid evolution, and instead believes verbatim words written a couple of thousand years ago, long before evolution and study of the fossil record were even a twinkle in anyone's eye? Nothing personal, just addressing a topic....
  2. SubscriberKevin Eleven
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    05 Aug '22 23:33
    @indonesia-phil said
    So how sound is the logic used, and how near to the truth of reality would you say is someone who completely ignores all scientific evidence for hominid evolution, and instead believes verbatim words written a couple of thousand years ago, long before evolution and study of the fossil record were even a twinkle in anyone's eye? Nothing personal, just addressing a topic....
    No, I think it's clear you were being rather personal there.

    And what could you, Phil, or KellyJay, or any of us ever hope to change with our manly verbal plumage?
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Aug '22 02:13
    @indonesia-phil said
    So how sound is the logic used, and how near to the truth of reality would you say is someone who completely ignores all scientific evidence for hominid evolution, and instead believes verbatim words written a couple of thousand years ago, long before evolution and study of the fossil record were even a twinkle in anyone's eye? Nothing personal, just addressing a topic....
    I have asked you for some specifics; what scientific evidence do you have? With
    respect to evolution, even if true, it doesn't solve anything for you; it is still a
    process doing highly complex work, and if true, does that reflect something
    mindless or designed? Moreover, evolution is a process that requires life to already
    exist, it doesn't address the beginning where the formation of life not only had
    to occur but within its beginning, set up the processes to generate life hold
    information, work off that information, create and maintain error checking and
    on and on.

    Not only do you have to have life arise from dead dirt into what we see today,
    but there is also the small matter of matter and the rest of the universe setup in
    such a way that life could happen. Mindless dumb luck or God?
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Aug '22 03:42
    @kellyjay said
    I have asked you for some specifics; what scientific evidence do you have? With
    respect to evolution, even if true, it doesn't solve anything for you; it is still a
    process doing highly complex work, and if true, does that reflect something
    mindless or designed? Moreover, evolution is a process that requires life to already
    exist, it doesn't address the beginning where t ...[text shortened]... and the rest of the universe setup in
    such a way that life could happen. Mindless dumb luck or God?
    OK, as I have stated many times before, maybe a creator entity of some kind is the cause of it. But why must we anthropomorphize this entity? Why must we believe that Gabriel communicated with Muhammad or that Jesus communicated with Paul or that the Rishis had the Vedas divinely revealed to them or that this creator entity decided to walk on Earth as a progressive Jew?
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Aug '22 09:281 edit
    @fmf said
    OK, as I have stated many times before, maybe a creator entity of some kind is the cause of it. But why must we anthropomorphize this entity? Why must we believe that Gabriel communicated with Muhammad or that Jesus communicated with Paul or that the Rishis had the Vedas divinely revealed to them or that this creator entity decided to walk on Earth as a progressive Jew?
    If you think it's clear mindlessness cannot do all that was required, then we must
    come to the conclusion a mind did it. From that point on, the discussion moves to
    who?
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    06 Aug '22 09:36
    @kellyjay said
    If you think it's clear mindlessness cannot do all that was required, then we must
    come to the conclusion a mind did it.
    How did you get that from his post?
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Aug '22 10:05
    @kellyjay said
    If you think it's clear mindlessness cannot do all that was required, then we must
    come to the conclusion a mind did it. From that point on, the discussion moves to
    who?
    Thank you for typing a question instead of addressing what I said. Here it is once again:

    [1] Maybe a creator entity of some kind is the 'cause' of the universe.

    [2] Why must we anthropomorphize this entity?

    [3] Why must we believe that Gabriel communicated with Muhammad or that Jesus communicated with Paul or that the Rishis had the Vedas divinely revealed to them or that this creator entity decided to walk on Earth as a progressive Jew?

    I'd be interested in your answers.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Aug '22 13:03
    @fmf said
    Thank you for typing a question instead of addressing what I said. Here it is once again:

    [1] Maybe a creator entity of some kind is the 'cause' of the universe.

    [2] Why must we anthropomorphize this entity?

    [3] Why must we believe that Gabriel communicated with Muhammad or that Jesus communicated with Paul or that the Rishis had the Vedas divinely revealed to them or ...[text shortened]... creator entity decided to walk on Earth as a progressive Jew?

    I'd be interested in your answers.
    The maybe is the question as far as I concerned, no need to worry about who, if who is still up in the air as a requirement.

    Once that is settled then we can move on to the rest, mindlessness or a mind caused the universe to be, and then in it life?

    If there is a scientific refutation of that great spell it out, if not, why do people suggest science has resolved anything, when it comes to these issues, when clearly it has not!?
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Aug '22 13:031 edit
    @kellyjay said
    The maybe is the question as far as I concerned, no need to worry about who, if who is still up in the air as a requirement.
    You ask about "who"?

    Why must we anthropomorphize this entity?
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Aug '22 13:04
    @kellyjay said
    Once that is settled then we can move on to the rest, mindlessness or a mind caused the universe to be, and then in it life?
    When you say "mind", do you mean a "mind" similar to a human mind?
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Aug '22 13:08
    @kellyjay said
    If there is a scientific refutation of that great spell it out, if not, why do people suggest science has resolved anything, when it comes to these issues, when clearly it has not!?
    Science has made great strides towards the deeper and more detailed understanding that we currently have of the universe. Maybe the nature of the universe ~ as we know it ~ is the closest we can be [at the moment] to perceiving the nature of the creator entity that is the 'cause' of it all.
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Aug '22 14:45
    @fmf said
    You ask about "who"?

    Why must we anthropomorphize this entity?
    I said unless we agree that mindlessness can not bring about the universe and life, discussions about who is premature. Once we acknowledge the necessity then it becomes something required. If the necessity of a creator is rejected, who cares how many names are floated, all are rejected out of hand.
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Aug '22 14:49
    @kellyjay said
    I said unless we agree that mindlessness can not bring about the universe and life, discussions about who is premature. Once we acknowledge the necessity then it becomes something required. If the necessity of a creator is rejected, who cares how many names are floated, all are rejected out of hand.
    It seems you don't want to address what I am putting to you and asking you.
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Aug '22 14:521 edit
    @kellyjay said
    I said unless we agree that mindlessness can not bring about the universe and life, discussions about who is premature. Once we acknowledge the necessity then it becomes something required. If the necessity of a creator is rejected, who cares how many names are floated, all are rejected out of hand.
    ...mindlessness ... discussions about who ... many names are floated ... need to worry about who ... mind ... the discussion moves to who ... etc. etc.

    Why must we anthropomorphize this entity?
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Aug '22 14:54
    @kellyjay said
    If you cannot understand whether our assertions stand or fall on the merit
    of the assertion themselves, not personalities, I doubt very seriously you'd
    grasp when someone is floundering or not.
    What "merit" does your assertion that you are immortal stand on?
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