@ghost-of-a-duke saidMorality does not apply to God. The Book of Job makes that abundantly clear.
That said, He did override the Pharaoh's free will. (Which was my point).
The reason this point is important is because if God can (when He sees fit) override human free will (as he did with the Pharaoh, whatever the reason) then why doesn't He override human free will to prevent suffering of the innocent?
The free will defence is frequently used by theists to a ...[text shortened]... ine impatience as a valid reason for God to override human free will. Is that the only valid reason?
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidPerfection is a toxic and incoherent ideal. A sentient being which never does, intends, or even thinks of doing wrong is not a perfect being. It would be a stunted, hobbled creature devoid of moral agency (lacking "freewill," to use the Christian term). To be capable of doing good, a sentient being must also be capable of doing things which are not-good or neutral. The capability for not-good is not itself evil, any more than susceptibility to disease is itself a disease.
Nobody is perfect Kelly. That doesn't make us all evil.
I think you would be more content in life if you realised that.
Therefore, the evil is not that mankind is not perfect, but rather that some portions of mankind denigrate mankind because they think mankind does not measure up to a toxic and incoherent ideal.
If even angels fall, what reason have we to be ashamed?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI meant to answer this today, and actually started to, but then I spent 3 hours on hold today. 🙁
That said, He did override the Pharaoh's free will. (Which was my point).
The reason this point is important is because if God can (when He sees fit) override human free will (as he did with the Pharaoh, whatever the reason) then why doesn't He override human free will to prevent suffering of the innocent?
The free will defence is frequently used by theists to a ...[text shortened]... ine impatience as a valid reason for God to override human free will. Is that the only valid reason?
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@moonbus saidCalling perfection toxic excuses all types of self-righteous deeds. Freewill is a Christian term I would agree with that, we can do as we desire, just look at the things we desire and do, what a world we live in.
Perfection is a toxic and incoherent ideal. A sentient being which never does, intends, or even thinks of doing wrong is not a perfect being. It would be a stunted, hobbled creature devoid of moral agency (lacking "freewill," to use the Christian term). To be capable of doing good, a sentient being must also be capable of doing things which are not-good or neutral. The capabi ...[text shortened]... asure up to a toxic and incoherent ideal.
If even angels fall, what reason have we to be ashamed?
Reality pulls no punches, with the capacity to do good in the face of everything saying take the easy way out, it is us or them, but still do the right thing, that is a real choice, especially if it comes with negative consequences for goodness sake. On the other side of that equation, there are times everyone can win by doing the right thing, but some people will still do wrong because they put themselves first so they benefit more at the cost to others, that too in life are real choices we make with consequences.
The capability for not doing good simply shows us the choices we make are real and the damage we can inflict on one another or ourselves are actual results due to them. The fruit of those types of choices plays out and sometimes for generations.
Can you think of a way where love and the ability not to love could play out in some other way if you were going to design a universe with beings that could choose one way over the other? Would you remove the ability to choose otherwise?
You are right about this too, there was a war in heaven and it spilled out onto the earth where choices were made.
@kellyjay saidThe fruit of those types of choices plays out and sometimes for generations.
The capability for not doing good simply shows us the choices we make are real and the damage we can inflict on one another or ourselves are actual results due to them. The fruit of those types of choices plays out and sometimes for generations.
Does this explain bone cancer in children in this universe that you believe your God figure has created?
@kellyjay saidWe can probably more or less agree on what "human morality" is. But what is "God's morality"? Can "He" just do whatever he wants, without restraint, and have his followers - like you - declare whatever "He" does to be, self-evidently and by definition - "good"?
Human morality doesn’t apply to God any more than God’s attributes man can live up to.
