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-Removed-You may as well be asking if I believe Jesus or not.
He talks about a place described as hell and he talks about a place described as a lake of fire. If I understand the Biblical timeline correctly and you go to hell, you'll only have to be there for about 1,050 years... give or take a few years. Probably less than 1,100 years. Anywho, however long it will be, then it's off you go into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire wasn't made for you, it was made for the devil and his angels. But if you insist on following the devils lead here on earth then where else do you think God should put you? I don't believe this is negotiable, but if you think it should be I suggest you begin negotiating with God now, before you die.
I'm not sure what will happen to you in the lake of fire. I doubt it's a literal lake or fire in the conventional physical sense. But it probably best describes the sort of horrendous destructive force capable of eating away at your soul until nothing is left of you but a shriveled up "worm that dieth not".
The smoke of your torment rising up forever doesn't tell me you will be tormented forever, but that's probably what it does mean seeing as how your worm will never die.
And it's still not clear to me what "worm" means. Maybe it means your soul can be stripped away of everything except for its bare essence... the essential 'you' that will never die. But it is called the second death, and if this lake of fire is able to destroy Satan then it should certainly be able to destroy you as well. So it's quite possible you won't have to suffer for an eternity... well, not all of you, because there's still this worm thingy that never dies.
Originally posted by lemon limeSo is this a 'yes, those not saved are tormented for eternity' or a 'no, those not saved are not tormented for eternity' in your view?
The smoke of your torment rising up forever doesn't tell me you will be tormented forever, but that's probably what it does mean seeing as how your worm will never die.
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Originally posted by lemon limeDoes this mean you believe 'yes, the souls of those not saved are destroyed' [you mentioned a destructive force] or does it mean you believe 'no, the souls of those not saved are not allowed to cease existing' [you mentioned that the soul "dieth not"]?
I'm not sure what will happen to you in the lake of fire. I doubt it's a literal lake or fire in the conventional physical sense. But it probably best describes the sort of horrendous destructive force capable of eating away at your soul until nothing is left of you but a shriveled up "worm that dieth not".
Originally posted by FMFSee my most recent post to divegeester.
For some reason, you still aren't being clear. As for your own beliefs: do you think that death is the end for those who don't make it to heaven? Do you think that those who are not "saved" are destroyed, and that there is no eternal torture?
Originally posted by lemon limeDo you believe that a rejection of the ideology of eternal torment is a rejection of Christ?
The lake of fire wasn't made for you, it was made for the devil and his angels. But if you insist on following the devils lead here on earth then where else do you think God should put you? I don't believe this is negotiable, but if you think it should be I suggest you begin negotiating with God now, before you die.
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Originally posted by lemon limeSo does this mean you believe non-believers "won't have to suffer for an eternity" or they will "have to suffer for an eternity"?
So it's quite possible you won't have to suffer for an eternity... well, not [b]all of you, because there's still this worm thingy that never dies.[/b]
Originally posted by lemon limeLol, lol......I have been laughing for 5 minutes about this. Firstly, it's bad enough that you get sent to hell for about 1,000 years.......but, lol....you get out of hell, only to be sent to the lake of fire. What a raw deal!! I am only laughing because I was not expecting the latter part. I thought after hell was done with, that some redemption...or mercy could be in order. But, to be thrown directly into the lake of fire?? This would be super, super funny....if only people didn't believe it.
You may as well be asking if I believe Jesus or not.
He talks about a place described as hell and he talks about a place described as a lake of fire. If understand the Biblical timeline correctly and you go to hell, you'll only have to be there for about 1,050 years... give or take a few years. Probably less than 1,100 years. Anywho, however long it wi ...[text shortened]... eternity... well, not [b]all of you, because there's still this worm thingy that never dies.[/b]
Where is God's mercy and love in all of that? What about people living in some remote jungle somewhere who have never heard of God or Jesus? Are they simply doomed because of geography?
Originally posted by FMFIt depends on what this "worm" thing is. I don't know what it means... it could mean that some part of you will wriggle and squirm in torment forever and ever, or it could mean something else.
I am asking you what your view is on what the Bible says and means ~ about whether the torture of those who are not "saved" is eternal or if they are destroyed..
Like I said, I didn't write those passages so I can't be sure of what everything I've read means. Knowing what this wormy thing is would go a long way to answering your question, but I can't tell you what "worm dieth not" means... because I don't know.
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Originally posted by lemon limeMark 9:48 "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." This "worm" refers to an unbeliever's eternal remembrances of lost opportunities to have chosen for rather than against accepting God's grace [free] gift of salvation and eternal life, courtesy of Jesus Christ's substitutionary spiritual death which propitiated [satisfied] God the Father's Justice and Righteousness [His Divine Integrity].
It depends on what this "worm" thing is. I don't know what it means... it could mean that some part of you will wriggle and squirm in torment forever and ever, or it could mean something else.
Like I said, I didn't write those passages so I can't be sure of what everything I've read means. Knowing what this wormy thing is would go a long way to answering your question, but I can't tell you what "worm dieth not" means... because I don't know.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThis makes sense, but I've been unable to find any commentary on this other than what appears to be speculation. Possibly a Jewish scholar familiar with the original language and idioms of that day could shed some light on this... my google searches have only led me to what appear to be attempts at understanding it.
Mark 9:48 "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." This "worm" refers to an unbeliever's eternal remembrances of lost opportunities to have chosen for rather than against accepting God's grace [free] gift of salvation and eternal life, courtesy of Jesus Christ's substitutionary spiritual death which propitiated [satisfied] God the Father's Justice and Righteousness [His Divine Integrity].
edit: Just now found something... Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)
(1913)
3. An internal tormentor; something that gnaws or afflicts one's mind with remorse.
The worm of conscience still begnaw thy soul! Shak.
(1828)
3. Remorse; that which incessantly gnaws the conscience; that which torments.
Where their worm dieth not. Mark 9.