-Removed-As I've shown you before salvation and the Lake of Fire are two separate doctrines in the Word of God. Faith alone in Christ alone is the only relevant issue. Then God's plan provides for a lifetime of growing in grace and acquiring the Mind of Christ to spiritual maturity under the teaching ministry of your pastor... beginning with milk and then gradually advancing to meat. An understanding of God's Attributes of Justice and Righteousness is required to understand the Lake of Fire.
-Removed-Originally posted by divegeester
It's not unreasonable but as I said to Lemon Lime, my not knowing what it means does not validate your claim to know what it means. My ignorance does not lend veracity to your guess. My demand that it does not mean something is what is important and you may challenge that but cannot say, 'well dive you don't know what it means and I do so I'm right.'"
Your not knowing what it means certainly doesn't mean I do! That is true, but it does mean something. I'm certain you will agree with that.
"So firstly I have absolutely no idea what it actually refers to,.."
That established let's move on to your second point.
"Secondly I know that it does not mean;.."
It is illogical to think one knows what isn't before knowing what is. It's like saying one knows what's on the other side of the moon having never been there.
"...it does not mean that the God of John 3:13 who came and suffered and paid a terrible price to provide access to him, also had in his mind from the beginning that those whom he loved and died for but who rejected him will suffer for it for all eternity in a place of the most unimaginable horror and pain while he and his angels watch."
A terrible contrast to reconcile to be certain. If true, then I don't believe there is anyone but God that can explain it or justify it. Know what I mean?
"Remember the claim is that this sovereign god knew how many would reject him and still created this hellish place and decided to maintain it's existence for eternity and stand and watch the flesh-melting carnage. You want to worship that!?"
If God did create a "lake of fire" for Satan and the angels, and all who rejected this God of unfathomable love you have characterized as evil for doing so, then yes I want to worship Him. Not because of how you have portrayed Him, but because your characterization of God is unbiblical.
"I'll go further. If believing in this eternal holocaust is a salvation issue, as Hinds and I think, GB sometimes seems to claim/sometimes not, then I want NOTHING to do with that god."
If you have believed on Jesus Christ you will be saved. No matter what you may believe about hell.
"The punishment is eternal, physical and unspeakably cruel for a crime that is mental and temporal at best."
You're not the judge! Be glad of it. I certainly am because I know I would not be just.
"Now you believe what you want but my 'mission' (if you like, it's not a mission, I'm just making a point) is to call out you crazies who I believe bring the name and nature of our god into disrepute because of this disgusting doctrine."
You are free to believe and state what you want about people who disagree with you, but it isn't any of those you called out at the start of this thread that have characterized God in the way you have.
I understand how passionate you are about this issue. If it is true that God created a place of eternal punishment, which by the way I find to be as unfathomable as infinity, just remember I have lost loved ones too.
Nobody wants to see anyone go to hell, including God.
Originally posted by josephwDon't be silly. He conducts a ministry of sorts here - in public - and I can ask it and he can answer it (or not as the case may be) here in public if he wants to. There is nothing scriptural supporting being secretive about being a "teacher" or propagating the Christian faith. Besides, in recent weeks Grampy Bobby has been insinuating - at times - that to disagree with his interpretations or beliefs is to "reject Christ". He has now dodged in behind this "pastor/teacher/authority" thing which he often does. So it absolutely does come out of the context of this thread and what he has been posting. Good grief ~ josephw ~ it's as if you post the very first thoughts that you come into your head sometimes (like Suzianne often does) without bearing in mind that your very first thoughts are not necessarily the best you can do. 😉
What gives you the right to ask personal questions?
Besides that it has nothing to do with the context in which GB posted it.
Originally posted by josephwDo you think that death is the end for those who don't make it to heaven?
I understand how passionate you are about this issue. If it is true that God created a place of eternal punishment, which by the way I find to be as unfathomable as infinity, just remember I have lost loved ones too.
Do you think that those not "saved" are destroyed, and that there is no eternal torture?
Originally posted by FMFPerhaps I was a bit hasty, but whether or not who or what GB may or may not be is his personal business and doesn't come under the arena of objective debate.
Don't be silly. He conducts a ministry of sorts here - in public - and I can ask it and he can answer it (or not as the case may be) here in public if he wants to. There is nothing scriptural supporting being secretive about being a "teacher" or propagating the Christian faith. Besides, in recent weeks Grampy Bobby has been insinuating - at times - that to disag ...[text shortened]... ithout bearing in mind that your very first thoughts are not necessarily the best you can do. 😉
I seriously doubt that GB is under any illusions about who he is. Your inquiry about how he perceives himself in relation to this forum is rather cheesy. imo
Originally posted by FMF"Do you think that death is the end for those who don't make it to heaven?"
Do you think that death is the end for those who don't make it to heaven?
Do you think that those not "saved" are destroyed, and that there is no eternal torture?
Yes, the second death. I think that means that we die once here in this world, and the unbelieving die again in the next.
"Do you think that those not "saved" are destroyed, and that there is no eternal torture?"
One thing for sure is, according to the authority of God's Word, those who reject God's gift of eternal life won't get it.
I've been avoiding debating the issue of eternal punishment in definitive terms.
Originally posted by josephwThen doesn't that make your assertion about how you think Grampy Bobby perceives himself in relation to this forum ~ that you seriously doubt that he is under any illusions about who he is ~ "rather cheesy" too?
I seriously doubt that GB is under any illusions about who he is. Your inquiry about how he perceives himself in relation to this forum is rather cheesy. imo
If someone has relentlessly studied medicine or law or history or science or music or any other academic discipline, that person will be in a position to provide you with an authoritative answer to your questions related to his or her chosen field. You may like the answer and agree or dislike the answer and disagree: this exercise of your prerogative in no way invalidates the accuracy of the answer from someone whose investment of time devoted to in depth study has resulted in an acknowledged expertise. The same rationale holds true for Pastor-Teachers; and over the decades I've been fortunate to have learned from three whose authority I accepted and who have faithfully exercised the Gift of Pastor-Teacher in expository teaching of the Word of God verse by verse, precept upon precept from the original languages in which it was written. My replies in this spirituality forum reflect biblical truths I've learned.
If the Holy Spirit had given me the Gift of Pastor Teacher, I'd be teaching serious students of the Word of God in an independent local church not playing online correspondence chess and socializing on this forum.
___________________________
Originally posted by JS357 Thread 158140 (Page 4)
"The purpose of this church is to make sound doctrine available to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ." This means (to me) that his church is not about outreach beyond "... believers in the Lord Jesus Christ." He's got his flock and it does not include me. But I assume it includes you, as you defer to him.
It's his church. So be it."
___________________________
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Yes. Bill Wenstrom has the Gift of Pastor-Teacher. He systematically teaches the whole realm of Bible Doctrine from the original languages; presenting accurate salvation information for the benefit of unbelievers is part of this responsibility.
Note: Though a local church, its outreach is not geographically limited: MP3CD Ordering is shown on the Home Page.
I recently discovered this site which is unrelated to the three Pastor Teachers I've learned from over the decades.
"He's got his flock and it does not include me." JS, are you searching for "sound doctrine" from a pastor-teacher?"