@kellyjay saidApparently your god does . What a douchebag
Who claims God finds pleasure in wrongdoing, even suggesting God finds pleasure in the punishment begs the question why would He take on our guilt to redeem us if punishment gives Him pleasure? A twisted mind that would accuse God would I suppose, since God hung on a cross for us as a human so we could be redeemed and they still would accuse Him. An evil heart would do that!
@caissad4 saidGod, especially as we find Him in the OT, is, at times, monstrous, jealous, needy and petty.
Apparently your god does . What a douchebag
Now, assuming that God does exist, I have no problem with theists worshipping him as the all powerful creator who will determine the place they will spend eternity. What I do have a problem with is trying to present him as a righteous and morally sound deity and to try and justify his monstrous acts in the OT and present them as something godly.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhen you look at evil, do you think a Holy, Righteous God could ever just let it be, instead of doing something about it? When the world was first created it was called very good and only one thing was found to be wrong at the beginning man was alone so woman was made. It wasn't until we brought sin into the world that all of the issues occurred. A direct result of evil, so instead of criticizing the evil you criticize God? The universe and everything in it was made by Him, and for Him, there would be no reason for anything to exist except through that.
God, especially as we find Him in the OT, is, at times, monstrous, jealous, needy and petty.
Now, assuming that God does exist, I have no problem with theists worshipping him as the all powerful creator who will determine the place they will spend eternity. What I do have a problem with is trying to present him as a righteous and morally sound deity and to try and justify his monstrous acts in the OT and present them as something godly.
There is nothing needy about God, He needs nothing, we can give nothing to Him He requires. He knows our needs, we were about to stand before Him without hope and He acted on our behalf. When He created, He gave us everything we needed and told us to rule. Another point from Clay Jones, we had at the beginning a very good life, we were to garden, and nothing was forbidden from us except one thing. Fruitful work, and hanging around with a naked member of the opposite sex all day long. We ruined that by wanting more even though we were warned about it.
The thing is God does love us and is jealous over us, He wants the best for us, and in the case of God, there is nothing better than He is. Again, not because of His needs, but instead because of ours. He paid a great price taking on our sins so we could be forgiven, that was not a little thing! Instead of being grateful some treat it as an evil act He only made one way and it wasn't to their liking. So salvation through God Himself in Jesus Christ, some are upset there is only one way to Him, they want their own ways to Him, or to be able to ignore or deny Him altogether.
Knowing we cannot survive without Him, and that we stand condemned for our actions and words, His longsuffering and everlasting love works to have us come freely out of love. Which is the only thing that matters to Him, there is no money we can give Him to satisfy any need, no good works, and all of our efforts are meaningless to the One who created all things and sustains them all. It is a complex world, as I repeated the natural laws of the universe are unbending, which makes life's choices meaningful, if it were not for the consistency of the universe none of our choices would have any meaning in them, the truth would be our feelings as some would like to turn this world into now, at great cost.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYes, and this is an issue why? We are talking about a Holy Righteous Good God, this would be like touching a live wire from a downed power line, we cannot handle it.
As an aside:
'When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.' (2 Samuel 6).
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIt is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God, don't make a mistake about that. Do you think everyone doing what is right in their own eyes has made the world a much better place to live in?
@KellyJay
Deuteronomy 6:15 gives us a perfect definition of a tyrannical and needy leader:
"For the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth."
@kellyjay saidRead the text again. The chap touched the ark because the oxen stumbled. He didn't die immediately, as though touching a live wire, but as a result of God's anger. (Even though touching the ark was clearly accidental).
Yes, and this is an issue why? We are talking about a Holy Righteous Good God, this would be like touching a live wire from a downed power line, we cannot handle it.
@kellyjay saidYou claim your God isn't subject to human morality (even though this morality comes from his instruction) and yet this very same God has a human emotion like jealousy that leads him to tyrannical behaviour.
It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God, don't make a mistake about that. Do you think everyone doing what is right in their own eyes has made the world a much better place to live in?
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe ethic of the OT was based on actions, not intentions; this is one of the respects in which the NT revised the OT: Jesus introduced the ethical concept of motivation or intention as the ethical determinant (i.e., not what you put into your mouth, but what comes out of it, is what defiles you -- not eating pork when it is forbidden, but speaking badly of someone else, etc.). The Mosaic commandments are concerned with actions (thou shall not kill, steal, bear false witness, worship graven images, etc.); whereas Jesus's two and a half commandments are all to do with a specific motivation (to love God, oneself, and one's neighbor). (Those of pure faith will be forgiven, no matter what they DO, is of course a perverse mis-interpretation of what Jesus taught.)
As an aside:
'When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.' (2 Samuel 6).
The same ethical shift occurred in ancient Greece, from act-based punishments (accidental homicide or cannibalism was as severely punished as intentional homicide or cannibalism), to reason-based ethics (Aristotle, Stoicism, etc.).
The main difference is that in Christianity, this ethical development was formulated in religious terms, whereas in ancient Greece, it appeared in a philosophical idiom.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSo God who created everything that is not God, who holds it all together by the power of His Word, who is righteousnesses, the only one who is good the lists go on according to you is a tyrant?
You claim your God isn't subject to human morality (even though this morality comes from his instruction) and yet this very same God has a human emotion like jealousy that leads him to tyrannical behaviour.
Why, because He sees the beginning from the end, giving His full attention to every single particular at the same time, you believe is over the top and unfair? As He tells us what we should and should not do, you don’t think He might have good reasons.
@moonbus saidStill, you'd think even the OT God, in His omniscience, would be more forgiving of accidents or at the very least direct his anger at the stumbling ox.
The ethic of the OT was based on actions, not intentions; this is one of the respects in which the NT revised the OT: Jesus introduced the ethical concept of motivation or intention as the ethical determinant (i.e., not what you put into your mouth, but what comes out of it, is what defiles you -- not eating pork when it is forbidden, but speaking badly of someone else, etc.) ...[text shortened]... was formulated in religious terms, whereas in ancient Greece, it appeared in a philosophical idiom.