Mediator between spiritual and sensual

@fmf said
If you have changed your mind, just say so.

When I change my mind I'll let you know.

I found some more quotes by Beethoven. Here are a few I liked.

"Don't only practice your art, but force your way into it's secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine."

"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."

"Must it be? It must be."

But, "music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life" I find questionable.

You just can't handle that can you?

@secondson said

But, "music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life" I find questionable.

You just can't handle that can you?

For some, a journey is required from the spiritual to the sensual, and for that a vehicle is necessary. Music can be such a vehicle, the transporter of profound feeling into the very soul of the listener.

Why do you think you sing hymns in church? Is it not because "music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life"?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
For some, a journey is required from the spiritual to the sensual, and for that a vehicle is necessary. Music can be such a vehicle, the transporter of profound feeling into the very soul of the listener.

Why do you think you sing hymns in church? Is it not because "music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life"?

Thanks Ghost. Finally a word about that quote to me that helps me to get a better understanding of it, yet I still balk at the idea of a mediator, as though one was necessary.

Why do I sing hymns in church? Not to have a "sensual" ecstatic experience between my spiritual and my "sensual life", but to praise and worship my God in whom I find all spiritual meaning and purpose.

The body is the house in which the human spirit dwells, and I certainly don't need music to bridge the gap between the two.

Music can be used to express the sensual, but the sensual can never be used to express the spiritual.

The union between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man is immaterial in its purpose, except that it occurs within the body of a man, that is until the death of the mortal body.

@secondson said
When I change my mind I'll let you know.

People can decide for themselves whether you dug yourself into a hole and then changed your mind and started pretending that you hadn't.

@secondson said
Why do I sing hymns in church? Not to have a "sensual" ecstatic experience between my spiritual and my "sensual life", but to praise and worship my God in whom I find all spiritual meaning and purpose.

When I used to sing in church, especially when I lived in West Papua where the singing was passionate and exuberant, it was most certainly a sensual and ecstatic experience that blended completely with the spiritual purpose of being in that church together with those people.

@secondson said
Music can be used to express the sensual, but the sensual can never be used to express the spiritual.

Perhaps this is because you appear to have portrayed yourself ~ on the early pages of this thread ~ as a philistine. The spiritually uplifting and meditative effect of music is not everyone's cup of tea.

@secondson said
I found some more quotes by Beethoven. Here are a few I liked.

"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."

But, "music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life" I find questionable.

How can you like...

"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."

...and NOT like the more-or-less-the-same-in-meaning...

"Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life"

As metaphors go, in this context, "entrance into" and "mediator" are virtually synonyms when talking about different planes of human consciousness.

When I put it to you that Beethoven's "uplifting music has touched millions and millions of people deeply", what was your response?

@secondson said
Why do I sing hymns in church? Not to have a "sensual" ecstatic experience between my spiritual and my "sensual life", but to praise and worship my God in whom I find all spiritual meaning and purpose.

How does the spiritual meaning and purpose you find from God impact how you deal with people who find you to be quite ungodly, angry even?

@fmf said
How can you like...

"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."

...and NOT like the more-or-less-the-same-in-meaning...

"Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life"

As metaphors go, in this context, "entrance into" and "mediator" are virtua ...[text shortened]... oven's "uplifting music has touched millions and millions of people deeply", what was your response?

1.) The two are NOT "more-or-less-the-same-in-meaning..," and now that you mention it I see the error in both ideas.

"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge..."

Is it? Is music incorporeal? It is not. Music is corporeal. It is sound, which is matter. Sound is heard through the physical sense of hearing.

Music: the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity. Merrian-Webster

2.) "...higher world of knowledge...". Is that "world of knowledge" from somewhere out of this world? And if "music" is the "entrance" to a "knowledge which comprehends mankind", and man "cannot comprehend" it, of what use is it?

Again it, the quote, is just another pithy saying which tickles the ear, but has no substance of truth.

Clearly this is why Jesus said, "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

3.) ",..entrance into", "mediator", "...planes of human consciousness". I can almost understand how you think "entrance into" and "mediator" are virtually synonymous, "in this context", which is the two quotes, which are both rife with incongruous concepts, but then you had to introduce the idea of "planes of human consciousness" into the mix of metaphors.

"...when talking about different planes of human consciousness."

Is that a subject you consider yourself expert on? Have you attained to certain "knowledge" through an "entrance" or "mediator" of such knowledge that "man cannot comprehend"?

Do you have a Muse? Are you a musician? A poet? A literary genius? The "Main Poster" of a forum the vast majority of the human race will never hear of?

@secondson said
"...higher world of knowledge...". Is that "world of knowledge" from somewhere out of this world? And if "music" is the "entrance" to a "knowledge which comprehends mankind", and man "cannot comprehend" it, of what use is it?

Again it, the quote, is just another pithy saying which tickles the ear, but has no substance of truth.

A few posts ago you said you liked it. Have you changed your mind already?

@secondson said
And if "music" is the "entrance" to a "knowledge which comprehends mankind", and man "cannot comprehend" it, of what use is it?

Haven't you described matters in the spiritual plane ~ your God figure, for example ~ as being something with depths and significance that mankind - or the "natural mind" of man - cannot comprehend, or words to that effect? Haven't you made that claim countless times?

@divegeester said
How does the spiritual meaning and purpose you find from God impact how you deal with people who find you to be quite ungodly, angry even?

"How does the spiritual meaning and purpose you find from God impact how you deal with people who find you to be quite" divisive, especially in that you "soweth discord among brethren" in this forum as you side with unbelievers against Christians posting here?

@fmf said
Exhibit A: The music of Arvo Pärt.

This is one example of a composer whose music seems to me to function as a bridge between 'the sensual' and 'the spiritual' ~ or, shall we say, straddles both aspects of my consciousness. Another "mediator" for me has always been the interiors of cathedrals. And so... listening to Arvo Pärt while sitting in Tours cathedral it was... ecstatic, euphoric, sublime, transporting!

@fmf said
Haven't you described matters in the spiritual plane ~ your God figure, for example ~ as being something with depths and significance that mankind - or the "natural mind" of man - cannot comprehend, or words to that effect? Haven't you made that claim countless times?

Is the infinite compressible by a finite mind?

There is a "mediator" between man and God, and it ain't music. The mediator is the "incorporeal" Spirit of God, in conjunction with the Word of God, that makes "born again" believers "partakers of the divine nature" and sharing in "the mind of Christ" "who is the image of the invisible God".

The entirety of the concepts relative to the "knowledge" of the infinite and eternal God is beyond the comprehension of the natural mind of man. The apprehension of said knowledge is through faith in Jesus Christ and the experience of the regeneration of one's spirit. It is the only supernatural experience there is worth having that has the effect of causing "entrance into the higher world of knowledge", without which, "...mankind cannot comprehend."

You deny Christ, therefore the experience is denied you.

@secondson said

Music can be used to express the sensual, but the sensual can never be used to express the spiritual.

The union between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man is immaterial in its purpose, except that it occurs within the body of a man, that is until the death of the mortal body.

I am minded of Ephesians 5:19:

'Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord.'