@josephw said
"God is merciful, even to the damned."

I think you'll not find any verse or verses that will support that idea.

God's mercy is eternal on the believer, but not on those that reject His mercy. That's what the Bible teaches.

The Bible knows nothing about annihilation.

I personally would love to believe otherwise, that the lost simply ceased to exist, but again, the Bible knows nothing about that.

I'm sorry.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to EVERY MAN according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.(Romans 2:1-11 KJV)
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another😉(Romans 2:12-15 KJV)

NOTE :
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Including born again Saved justified Christian Saints

NOTE ALSO
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
EVERY MAN

@divegeester said
I disagree.

Two thieves hung on crosses next to Jesus.

Only one heard Jesus say to him "today will you be with me in paradise".

That thief recognized(acknowledged) and confessed(repentance) and believed.

The other thief died in his sins and is now in outer darkness.

There are simply too many contrasting concepts relative to salvation and destruction to interpret the scriptures as saying anything else.

I can't help it that you are projecting onto the scriptures an interpretation that aligns itself with your personal preconceptions.

The scriptures speak for itself and is abundantly clear on many topics.

Universal salvation and annihilation notwithstanding.

@rajk999 said
[i]Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things

Good plaque material for you.

@josephw said
Good plaque material for you.

Plaque for you

THERE IS NO RESPECT
OF PERSONS WITH GOD
DOERS SHALL BE JUSTIFIED
NOT HEARERS

@rajk999 said
Plaque for you

THERE IS NO RESPECT
OF PERSONS WITH GOD
DOERS SHALL BE JUSTIFIED
NOT HEARERS

All caps. I'm impressed.

@josephw said
"God is merciful, even to the damned."

I think you'll not find any verse or verses that will support that idea.

God's mercy is eternal on the believer, but not on those that reject His mercy. That's what the Bible teaches.

The Bible knows nothing about annihilation.

I personally would love to believe otherwise, that the lost simply ceased to exist, but again, the Bible knows nothing about that.

I'm sorry.

Have you heard that God loves all of us and is desirous that none fall astray and become lost?

Why would such a God be willing to torture those same for all of eternity? Is there a purpose for this? I argue that there is not, and he is not.

Perhaps your certitude that these will be your neighbors and not you causes you to have this blasé attitude about it, but the God you propose has no love for his creation.

That you read the same passages I do, yet you see a God torturing people for eons and eons, and I see a God with the decency to end that suffering and just expose them to the "second death" of the Lake of Fire.

Frankly, I am not concerned that my view is a minority view. But you are wrong in assuming it has no scriptural support.

@josephw said
The Bible knows nothing about annihilation.

You are mistaken. The Bible is teeming with verses that support the theology of annihilation. You should look into it. You might find it interesting.

@josephw said
Two thieves hung on crosses next to Jesus.
Only one heard Jesus say to him "today will you be with me in paradise".
That thief recognized(acknowledged) and confessed(repentance) and believed.
The other thief died in his sins and is now in outer darkness.
There are simply too many contrasting concepts relative to salvation and destruction to interpret the scripture elf and is abundantly clear on many topics.
Universal salvation and annihilation notwithstanding.

If you read my posts on this matter instead of zoning in and out perhaps we could debate it. But when Jesus said those words….

- “Today” as Jesus said, is temporal not eternal!

- because Jesus at that point had not yet died, not yet called out in abandonment, not yet gone for three days to defeat and nullify hell, obtain the keys and was not yet risen, transfigured and ascended. there was an infinite amount of work still to be done.

- the situation with the two thieves is based on the (at that moment) position in earth time. Not eternity.

Moral implications

- the god I believe in does not burn people alive for eternity, if yours does then I reject yours and hold to mine. Your god is therefore not my god. Your huffy-puffy threats of supernatural vengeance and appalling torture don’t impress me in the slightest.

- let’s zone in on the two thieves. Equally bad, equally evil, equally sinners. One makes this statement to Jesus and spends the rest of eternity in bliss, the other who in a moment of lost desperation lashes out and YOU (not Jesus) condemn him to and eternity of eternal torture.

^^ this attitude, this belief, this desire to be partisan in judgment based on moments in the temporal frame of the universe, is what is keeping people out of the kingdom today. In short Joseph YOU and this concrete attitude of hellish judgment over moments of desperation like these two thieves is what is keeping people from Christ.

@suzianne said
Have you heard that God loves all of us and is desirous that none fall astray and become lost?

Why would such a God be willing to torture those same for all of eternity? Is there a purpose for this? I argue that there is not, and he is not.

We’ve all see the science fiction about “timelines” right. Just bear with me on this analogy for a moment….

The bible is full, front to back, with inferences about different possibilities for what the future looks like at any point, from any point. What is predestination if it is not the manipulation of a person’s timeline?

God says he will “forget” our sins, How can god “forget”? There is only one way and that is if when a person is “saved” in this temporal existence then they experience that prior and previous timelines in eternity are wiped out. Gone, they never existed. God can forget because in eternity it never happened.

Same with hell. In one timeline Christ never died mankind is not saved but destined for extinction in what is an abandoned experiment. When Christ came and paid the price that timeline was alerted, our futures were reclaimed.

It’s a bit of a cheesy explanation of what I see as being the only explanation for deep work that Christ did. He saved everyone. Enjoy it “today” in paradise or just live without knowing until you die when every knee shall bow… EVERY knee… not just a few.

Edits: typos.

@divegeester said
We’ve all see the science fiction about “timelines” right. Just bear with me on this analogy for a moment….

The bible is full, front to back, with inferences about different possibilities for what the future looks like at any point, from any point. What is predestination if it is not the manipulation of a person’s timeline?

God says he will “forget” our sins, How c ...[text shortened]... thout knowing until you die when every knee shall bow… EVERY knee… not just a few.

Edits: typos.

When we write books, our characters don't have a choice in anything they say or do; we write them as evil, good, or amoral altogether. They say what we want, and they do what we want for as long as we want. We are not giving anyone any choices in our books; that is beyond us.

God can give everyone a choice; unlike us, He is not limited to this timeline, wondering what will happen. If we have no choice, then all judgment is a farce, but all His judgments are righteous, so I believe we have choices we make. I believe God only God is capable of giving them to us; they are ours.

Time for God is not like it is for us. He sees it all at once; a scripture says a day is as a thousand years to Him, which can also mean a moment is no different from a day. So given choices amid temptation, we either come to God or not; as soon as we do, we choose, and God accepts us. Love cannot be forced from someone, you cannot make someone love you, and the Kingdom of God loving God, and each other are the great two commands.

When judgment day comes, and it is coming, nothing secret will remain hidden, and everyone will end up right where they belong.

@fmf said
You are mistaken. The Bible is teeming with verses that support the theology of annihilation. You should look into it. You might find it interesting.

The man lives in a delusion. He chooses a word not the bible but which is synonymous with a word used in the bible and say the synonym is not there.

@rajk999 said
The man lives in a delusion. He chooses a word not the bible but which is synonymous with a word used in the bible and say the synonym is not there.

I don't deny words of scripture as you.

@kellyjay said
When we write books, our characters don't have a choice in anything they say or do; we write them as evil, good, or amoral altogether. They say what we want, and they do what we want for as long as we want. We are not giving anyone any choices in our books; that is beyond us.

God can give everyone a choice; unlike us, He is not limited to this timeline, wondering what wil ...[text shortened]... d it is coming, nothing secret will remain hidden, and everyone will end up right where they belong.

So, other then you vague assertion “judgment is coming”, you quite like my analogies?

@kellyjay said
I don't deny words of scripture as you.

You just avoid replying to posts which contain one’s which show your prior assertions to be mistaken.

@divegeester said
You just avoid replying to posts which contain one’s which show your prior assertions to be mistaken.

Disagreeing with you doesn’t mean I the one mistaken.