1. Joined
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    “Jesus Saves” A popular evangelical slogan from years past, with its emphasis clearly on Jesus doing the saving.

    The Bible says this about all people:

    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”

    Romans 3:11-12

    So how does “Jesus Save” us?
    If no one seeks god then the salvation of each person requires divine intervention, but what does that intervention consist of and why are the vast majority of people paying it no heed?
  2. Joined
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    02 Apr '23 08:12
    @divegeester said
    The Bible says this about all people:

    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”

    Romans 3:11-12
    It's interesting that Jesus did not say this.
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    02 Apr '23 08:21
    Perhaps Jesus, losing control of the narrative, should have returned in the C1st AD in order to nip the misanthropic and impotent Paulism in the bud.

    It would seem Jesus also lost control of the narrative when the ludicrous Book of Revelation got foisted on Christendom too ~ a book in which the figure who is supposedly Jesus is unrecognizable; a book that simply served the purposes of corporate Christianity.
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    02 Apr '23 08:531 edit
    @fmf said
    Perhaps Jesus, losing control of the narrative, should have returned in the C1st AD in order to nip the misanthropic and impotent Paulism in the bud.

    It would seem Jesus also lost control of the narrative when the ludicrous Book of Revelation got foisted on Christendom too ~ a book in which the figure who is supposedly Jesus is unrecognizable; a book that simply served the purposes of corporate Christianity.
    The "returned" Christ in Revelation is not the same character as Jesus the Christ as a human. In Revelation we see him in his full glory as the right hand of God, with full vanquishing vengeance towards evil.

    Gospels = human role
    Revelation = divine role

    Yes, there's a difference, they are not meant to be the same. The latter is more closely aligned with the Jews' idea of a savior. Christ in Revelation is the warrior-savior they've been waiting for.





    PS. There is no such thing as "corporate Christianity". Christianity does not serve corporate interests, and any "Christianity" that attempts to do so is not Christianity.
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    02 Apr '23 08:55
    @fmf said
    It's interesting that Jesus did not say this.
    Quite right.
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    02 Apr '23 08:58
    @suzianne said
    There is no such thing as "corporate Christianity". Christianity does not serve corporate interests, and any "Christianity" that attempts to do so is not Christianity.
    The no true Scotsman (you float here) is in full play in your country where corporate Christianity rules the airwaves blowing it trumpet of corporate greed, tax evasion and with it own brand of mega rich mouthpieces.
  7. SubscriberSuzianne
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    02 Apr '23 09:23
    @divegeester said
    The no true Scotsman (you float here) is in full play in your country where corporate Christianity rules the airwaves blowing it trumpet of corporate greed, tax evasion and with it own brand of mega rich mouthpieces.
    And, in full view of what I wrote, that is NOT Christianity.
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    02 Apr '23 09:55
    @suzianne said
    There is no such thing as "corporate Christianity". Christianity does not serve corporate interests, and any "Christianity" that attempts to do so is not Christianity.
    Of course there is corporate Christianity. One manifestation of it is HQ'd in The Vatican and has bishops stationed all over the world.
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    02 Apr '23 09:58
    @suzianne said
    The "returned" Christ in Revelation is not the same character as Jesus the Christ as a human. In Revelation we see him in his full glory as the right hand of God, with full vanquishing vengeance towards evil.
    Yes, I am well aware of how Christians rationalize the [disputed] inclusion of Revelation in the context of their fealty to the Biblical canon.
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    02 Apr '23 10:13
    @suzianne said
    There is no such thing as "corporate Christianity".
    A corporation is a group of people organized and authorized to act as a single entity and recognized as such in law and by society.

    Christianity has many tens of 1,000s of them.

    sonship posted here about the theology propagated by one particular manifestation of corporate Christianity. So did galveston75 with regard to the corporate entity he was a member of. So did Philokalia having converted to a particular denomination that existed as a corporate identity defined by doctrinal matters and its own hierarchy of clerics.
  11. PenTesting
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    02 Apr '23 10:23
    @divegeester said
    “Jesus Saves” A popular evangelical slogan from years past, with its emphasis clearly on Jesus doing the saving.

    The Bible says this about all people:

    [i]“There is no one righteous, not even one;
    there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even on ...[text shortened]... ut what does that intervention consist of and why are the vast majority of people paying it no heed?
    The same Paul 2 chapters down in Romans 5 :12-21, explains that God sent Christ to die to reverse the sin of Adam which came upon all men. This is why all men are sinners because they were born of sinful flesh. But Jesus's death bestowed upon ALL MEN the free gift of justification .

    The doctrine that faith in God must be expressed in order to be justified by the death of Christ is an erroneous doctrine. All people from Adam into the future have been given the free gift of justification.

    Justification does not mean eternal life. It means an opportunity to have eternal life.
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    02 Apr '23 10:37
    @divegeester said
    The no true Scotsman (you float here) is in full play in your country where corporate Christianity rules the airwaves blowing it trumpet of corporate greed, tax evasion and with it own brand of mega rich mouthpieces.
    Corporate Christianity rules the airwaves blowing it trumpet of corporate greed, tax evasion and with it own brand of mega-rich mouthpieces

    When I use the term "corporate Christianity", I am not ONLY talking about the stuff you mention above. I am referring more broadly to ecclesiastical matters and their effect on how denominations are differentiated.
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    02 Apr '23 10:43
    @divegeester said
    “Jesus Saves” A popular evangelical slogan from years past, with its emphasis clearly on Jesus doing the saving.

    The Bible says this about all people:

    [i]“There is no one righteous, not even one;
    there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even on ...[text shortened]... ut what does that intervention consist of and why are the vast majority of people paying it no heed?
    "Divine intervention" = "grace"
    So "grace" makes everlasting life possible.
    While Jesus explains what gaining it entails.
  14. PenTesting
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    02 Apr '23 10:50
    @fmf said
    "Divine intervention" = "grace"
    So "grace" makes everlasting life possible.
    While Jesus explains what gaining it entails.
    A nice summary.
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    02 Apr '23 15:02
    @fmf said
    Of course there is corporate Christianity. One manifestation of it is HQ'd in The Vatican and has bishops stationed all over the world.
    Again, any organization not set up as Christ would, is not Christian.

    I refer you back to my first post on the concept.
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