06 Apr 18
Originally posted by @secondsonYes, you believe in salvation now by faith. Thanks, I think I got cross-threaded.
Ephesians 2:8&9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Does that clear things up?
06 Apr 18
Originally posted by @sonshipThose are your opinions. I was rather looking for clear statements by Christ or Paul or the Apostles pertaining to this matter. I say they are your opinions because you ignore the parts of the teachings of Paul which say, regarding born again Christian saints who live sinfully -It is not a foregone conclusion that saved Christian saints will surely enter the Kingdom God
If it is then show me where Paul said that.
It is a biblical foregone conclusion that every Christian will enter the Kingdom of God.
It is not a foregone conclusion that all will enter at the appropriate TIME when they should.
it is a ...[text shortened]... Savior Jesus Christ will be richly and bountifully supplied to you." (2 Pet. 1:11) [/quote][/b]
- there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God
- they are cut off
- they are destroyed
- they are fit to be burned
- they will get no forgiveness.
- their fate is worse than if they did not know Chrsit in the first place
and other such clear statements.
Paul identified 3 groups
1. the righteous who do good works and are rewarded and enter the kingdom of God
2. the average ones who receive no reward but still enter the Kingdom
3. the sinful ones who are destroyed.
You refer in your post to the second group only who will be given an opportunity to change their ways and eventually enter the Kingdom of God at a later time.
You are ignoring what Paul said about the third group.
- :
Originally posted by @rajk999Paul identified 3 groups
Those are your opinions. I was rather looking for clear statements by Christ or Paul or the Apostles pertaining to this matter. I say they are your opinions because you ignore the parts of the teachings of Paul which say, regarding born again Christian saints who live sinfully -
- there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God
- they are cut off
- th ...[text shortened]... ngdom of God at a later time.
You are ignoring what Paul said about the third group.
- :
1. the righteous who do good works and are rewarded and enter the kingdom of God
2. the average ones who receive no reward but still enter the Kingdom
3. the sinful ones who are destroyed.
OK you are right as this is the crux of the whole issue on our discussions on salvation with the forum.
Jesus was very, very, very clear that he had ((((((((((((((( 2 )))))))))))))))))))) flocks that were his that he was involved with on this planet and that would have a future life either here on the planet earth which will eventually be called a paradise. This main group of these people Jesus called the "Great Crowd" or "other sheep".
The other smaller group is called the "little flock" by Jesus. This special group or flock had a specific number which the bible says is 144,000. This group is hand picked by Jesus to eventually rule with him in heaven. This group were of course humans that live or lived on the earth. While here they are just like the rest of all other humans in that they are imperfect and still sin. Once they die and are resurrected to go to heaven.... they are "Born Again" and they are now spirits beings that will serve along with Jesus, their God Jehovah. These are the only ones who were humans at one time who gain this eternal salvation or immortality that we are now discussing and where there is so much confusion on.
That first larger "great crowd" will be granted relative salvation and could live forever if they follow Gods laws all the way into the future. But....just as Adam and Eve could still be alive today if they had not sinned, those humans or the great crowd, which will also include all who are resurrected will be able to live forever as long as they stay faithful to God.
Believe it or not it is really this simply, just as the bible says that the light of the bible would get brighter and brighter as time went on.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @galveston75Another helpful fact when reading the Bible and with Jesus's interactions with all who followed him and with what he said to them when it comes to the apostles only or to the rest who followed him is this.
Paul identified 3 groups
1. the righteous who do good works and are rewarded and enter the kingdom of God
2. the average ones who receive no reward but still enter the Kingdom
3. the sinful ones who are destroyed.
OK you are right as this is the crux of the whole issue on our discussions on salvation with the forum.
Jesus was very, very, ver ...[text shortened]... t as the bible says that the light of the bible would get brighter and brighter as time went on.
When he spoke in very special details about his Kingdom and about who would rule with him in heaven, who would be the cornerstones of this Kingdom and who would be given unconditional salvation or immortality, he only spoke in this detail to his apostles. He never spoke of those detailed things to the general public which would include all the others or "great crowd" because those things didn't apply to them. He would speak of his Kingdom that would eventually clean the earth of all wickedness and that death would even be done away with as long as you followed that Kingdoms laws. This is the paradise that Jesus spoke to the criminal beside him at his death. He said he would be in a paradise when he would be resurrected, not to heaven.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @galveston75I think you are mistaken.
Paul identified 3 groups
1. the righteous who do good works and are rewarded and enter the kingdom of God
2. the average ones who receive no reward but still enter the Kingdom
3. the sinful ones who are destroyed.
OK you are right as this is the crux of the whole issue on our discussions on salvation with the forum.
Jesus was very, very, ver ...[text shortened]... t as the bible says that the light of the bible would get brighter and brighter as time went on.
The little flock Jesus said is the disciples who he sent out to preach.
The 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes as listed in Revelation.
I going with what the Bible says.
Originally posted by @galveston75Do you believe in being spiritually reborn, I.e. being “born again” as taught by Jesus?
Paul identified 3 groups
1. the righteous who do good works and are rewarded and enter the kingdom of God
2. the average ones who receive no reward but still enter the Kingdom
3. the sinful ones who are destroyed.
OK you are right as this is the crux of the whole issue on our discussions on salvation with the forum.
Jesus was very, very, ver ...[text shortened]... t as the bible says that the light of the bible would get brighter and brighter as time went on.
Most truly I (Jesus) say to you, unless anyone is born again,f he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”g 4 Nic·o·deʹmus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from waterh and spirit,i he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed because I told you: You people must be born again.j 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit.”
Once a person belongs to God it cannot be reversed. Jehovah himself said “no one can be delivered out of my hand”
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterI know you are addressing Galveston but I have a question.
Do you believe in being spiritually reborn, I.e. being “born again” as taught by Jesus?
[i]Most truly I (Jesus) say to you, unless anyone is born again,f he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”g 4 Nic·o·deʹmus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answe ...[text shortened]... ongs to God it cannot be reversed. Jehovah himself said “no one can be delivered out of my hand”
Where is the 'cannot be reversed part', which you speak of stated in the Bible.
I agree with the direct quote from the Bible about being spiritually reborn
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @rajk999There is some apparent biblical contradiction on this point (as there is on many points). I know where you stand on this and I no desire to go over it with you again, and again and again.
I know you are addressing Galveston but I have a question.
Where is the 'cannot be reversed part', which you speak of stated in the Bible.
I agree with the direct quote from the Bible about being spiritually reborn
You will not change my mind; I have read most of your posts over the years and there is nothing you have said that impacted on this matter. And I will not change your mind.
You live in fear of losing your spiritual rebirth, I don’t. I have no interest whatsoever in adopting your fear any more than I have in adopting sonships fear of eternal hell.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterI dont live in fear. But that is beside the point.
There is some apparent biblical contradiction on this point (as there is on many points). I know where you stand on this and I no desire to go over it with you again, and again and again.
You will not change my mind; I have read most of your posts over the years and there is nothing you have said that impacted on this matter. And I will not change y ...[text shortened]... whatsoever in adopting your fear any more than I have in adopting sonships fear of eternal hell.
So its not in the Bible and it contradicts the bible.
That much you have stated indirectly.
That 'cannot be reversed' doctrine, is one of the fabrications of the church.
Thanks for clearing that up.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @rajk999I didn’t say you “lived in fear”, I didn’t say it’s not in the bible, I haven’t “stated” anything “indirectly” and stop claiming a victory when none was conceded; these are tactics which are beneath your usual standard in here.
I dont live in fear. But that is beside the point.
So its not in the Bible and it contradicts the bible.
That much you have stated indirectly.
That 'cannot be reversed' doctrine, is one of the fabrications of the church.
Thanks for clearing that up.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterYou said .. You live in fear of losing your spiritual rebirth,
I didn’t say you “lived in fear”, I didn’t say it’s not in the bible, I haven’t “stated” anything “indirectly” and stop claiming a victory when none was conceded; these are tactics which are beneath your usual standard in here.
So is it in the Bible or not?
Ok so no victory for the truth today. Im interested in the truth as stated by Christ and the Apostles.
What is the truth behind your statement?
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterNot a problem.
Yes, you believe in salvation now by faith. Thanks, I think I got cross-threaded.
Is it a wonder how some appear to have a form of Godliness, but never seem to grasp that when they come to the foot of the cross they do so as they are? Without one plea? Without merit? Yet they insist on thinking that they can somehow earn forgiveness and grace by doing something in the flesh to add to the finished work of the cross.
For some reason Romans 5:8-10 doesn't resonate with them.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Originally posted by @rajk999I apologise, I meant to say that you live “with” a fear of losing your salvation. Maybe you don’t becuase you believe you have salvation. In any case we have and always will disagree. As I said we’ve been over this again and again. I’m not doing it another time as nothing you have said in the past moves me and I am no more interested in your scriptures on losing the gift of salvation than I am in sonships scriptures on eternal suffering.
You said .. You live in fear of losing your spiritual rebirth,
So is it in the Bible or not?
Ok so no victory for the truth today. Im interested in the truth as stated by Christ and the Apostles.
What is the truth behind your statement?
Originally posted by @secondsonYou do not understand what is the purpose of the death of Christ.
Not a problem.
Is it a wonder how some appear to have a form of Godliness, but never seem to grasp that when they come to the foot of the cross they do so as they are? Without one plea? Without merit? Yet they insist on thinking that they can somehow earn forgiveness and grace by doing something in the flesh to add to the finished work of the cross.
...[text shortened]... iled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
You do not understand what Paul means by the word 'SAVED".
You continue to misunderstand these things because you are comfortably deluded into thinking that the death of Christ gives you eternal life without you having to live righteously.
I asked you questions pertaining to these things but you refused to answer.
Quoting Romans 5 does not and can not counter the rest of Pauls teachings which state categorically that Christian saints will not inherit the Kingdom of God if they do not live righteously and do good works.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterOk. One last point. The only time ones salvation is secure is when the person is one of Christ's sheep. Christ said he will leave the 99 other safe sheep and go after that one lost sheep and bring him home. This does not apply to those who simply profess Christ with their mouth. They are not sheep. The sheep are a particular breed of people who Jesus defined clearly.
I apologise, I meant to say that you live “with” a fear of losing your salvation. Maybe you don’t becuase you believe you have salvation. In any case we have and always will disagree. As I said we’ve been over this again and again. I’m not doing it another time as nothing you have said in the past moves me and I am no more interested in your scriptures on losing the gift of salvation than I am in sonships scriptures on eternal suffering.
Professions of faith, worshiping, praying, bible reading are all worthless and meaningless if it does not bring the believer from dead faith to living faith. Living faith is righteousness and good works.
Jesus knows his sheep and they know him and they cannot go astray neither can anyone pluck them from his hand. Paul said similar things and his words are far more than what Christians routinely quote .. Romans 10:9, and Ephesians 2:5 etc etc. These things do not give eternal life.
Go in peace. 🙂