It would be interesting to hear some comments from those who have no horse in this race, about what Jesus means here. I get tired of sonship using the passage to condemn those he disagrees with. Here is the whole passage and the gist of what I think Jesus is saying:
- False prophets are like a corrupt tree which produces evil fruit
- Corrupt trees are cut down and burned
- Not everyone professing to know me will enter the Kingdom of Heaven
- Christ does no know faith-only people [mouth worshipers / Lord Lord types]]
- Christ knows those who hears his words and they do them
- Those who hears Christ and do not obey they are foolish.
Corrupt Trees
- False Prophets
- Mouth worshipers / 'Calling Lord Lord'
- Jesus does not hear or know them becuase they do not obey his commandments
- Foolish man with the house on the sand
Good Trees
- obey his commandments
- Jesus knows the
- Wise man with the house on a rock.
Here is the passage from Matthew:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
(Matthew 7:15-27 KJV)
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Originally posted by @rajk999<<Christ does no know faith-only people [mouth worshipers / Lord Lord types]]>>
It would be interesting to hear some comments from those who have no horse in this race, about what Jesus means here. I get tired of sonship using the passage to condemn those he disagrees with. Here is the whole passage and the gist of what I think Jesus is saying:
- False prophets are like a corrupt tree which produces evil fruit
- Corrupt trees are c ...[text shortened]... and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
(Matthew 7:15-27 KJV)[/i]
Where do you get that “faith-only people” are “mouth worshippers” and “Lord Lord types?”
It’s because you either don’t understand that God’s Holy Spirit indwells all who accept Jesus Christ into their hearts and believe in Him or you deny the power of God’s Holy Spirit to change lives.
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
(Romans 8:11)
<<Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.>>
Why looky here! Apparently casting out devils and doing “wonderful works” - i.e. doing the purposefully vague and chest-puffing “good works” - ain’t all it’s cracked up to be!
03 Apr 18
Originally posted by @romans1009What I think he is saying is this.....
<<Christ does no know faith-only people [mouth worshipers / Lord Lord types]]>>
Where do you get that “faith-only people” are “mouth worshippers” and “Lord Lord types?”
It’s because you either don’t understand that God’s Holy Spirit indwells all who accept Jesus Christ into their hearts and believe in Him or you deny the power of God’s Holy Spirit ...[text shortened]... . doing the purposefully vague and chest-puffing “good works” - ain’t all it’s cracked up to be!
James 2:20
But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:26
Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James 2:17
So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.
James 2:18
Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
It's actually a simple mixture of both, faith and works.
The bible is condemning those who say they have faith but does not do the works expected of a Christian. The bible says to follow Jesus words, commands and examples of what a Christian is to do, just as Jesus himself did. Being a Christian means to "be Christ like".
Did Jesus just sit and say he had faith but that was it? No not at all. Almost everyday of his adult life he was teaching to all that would listen. That is the major work of a Christian just as it was Jesus's main work as well of his apostles.
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04 Apr 18
Originally posted by @galveston75No one is denying (or ever has denied) that a Christian will do good works. The only point of contention is whether good works are a requirement for salvation. Salvation by faith alone is Biblical, understanding that genuine and sincere acceptance of and faith in Christ (Romans 10:9 and John 3:16) leads to the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit which changes a believer’s heart and consequently his or her behavior.
What I think he is saying is this.....
James 2:20
But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:26
Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James 2:17
So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.
James 2:18
Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have fai ...[text shortened]... That is the major work of a Christian just as it was Jesus's main work as well of his apostles.
Did the thief on the cross do any good works after he expressed belief in Christ? No. But Christ said the thief would be in paradise with Him. Throughout the New Testament, Christ spoke of the importance of faith, saying a woman’s faith made her whole and telling another who was waiting on a miracle, “Only believe.”
Good works follow saving faith. But good works aren’t a requirement of salvation - they, along with an aversion to sin, are evidence of salvation and God’s Holy Spirit indwelling and working on a believer.
04 Apr 18
Originally posted by @galveston75Thanks for these comments Galveston75. Specifically what do you make of Jesus's comments in the passage I quoted. Would you say that the false prophets Jesus warns about are like the ones who call Lord Lord who are also like the man building the house on the sand, who do not follow Christ commandments?
What I think he is saying is this.....
James 2:20
But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:26
Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James 2:17
So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.
James 2:18
Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have fai ...[text shortened]... That is the major work of a Christian just as it was Jesus's main work as well of his apostles.
04 Apr 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Nobody's denying the scriptures you quote.
<<Christ does no know faith-only people [mouth worshipers / Lord Lord types]]>>
Where do you get that “faith-only people” are “mouth worshippers” and “Lord Lord types?”
It’s because you either don’t understand that God’s Holy Spirit indwells all who accept Jesus Christ into their hearts and believe in Him or you deny the power of God’s Holy Spirit ...[text shortened]... . doing the purposefully vague and chest-puffing “good works” - ain’t all it’s cracked up to be!
The issue is that you mix the law with grace.
For salvation the two are mutually exclusive.
Without salvation one is powerless to keep the law.
As Jesus said, "you must be born again."
Unless one is born again, and is baptized "into Christ" and has the spirit of God, one cannot keep the law.
04 Apr 18
Originally posted by @rajk999No problem. And yes I agree where the bible explains that many false prophets would arise especially as this system draws closer to it's end.
Thanks for these comments Galveston75. Specifically what do you make of Jesus's comments in the passage I quoted. Would you say that the false prophets Jesus warns about are like the ones who call Lord Lord who are also like the man building the house on the sand, who do not follow Christ commandments?
And the ones who do build on the rock instead of on the sand would be ones not only showing basic wisdom but would be showing that they are here for the long haul thus showing their fruits which would be seen by many as following the bible's commands to do such things, as an example, to not be a part of this world just as Jesus taught and followed. "One cannot serve two masters".
04 Apr 18
Originally posted by @galveston75Thanks.
No problem. And yes I agree where the bible explains that many false prophets would arise especially as this system draws closer to it's end.
And the ones who do build on the rock instead of on the sand would be ones not only showing basic wisdom but would be showing that they are here for the long haul thus showing their fruits which would be seen by ...[text shortened]... o not be a part of this world just as Jesus taught and followed. "One cannot serve two masters".
04 Apr 18
Originally posted by @secondsonIt will get some groans, but I'm going to raise Romans 2:15 here:
Nobody's denying the scriptures you quote.
The issue is that you mix the law with grace.
For salvation the two are mutually exclusive.
Without salvation one is powerless to keep the law.
As Jesus said, "you must be born again."
Unless one is born again, and is baptized "into Christ" and has the spirit of God, one cannot keep the law.
'Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.'
How does this fit in with your summation that without salvation one is powerless to keep the law? Isn't the above passage indicating that the law can be kept even by gentiles, due to the law being written on their hearts?
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeThey groan over almost the whole Bible.
It will get some groans, but I'm going to raise Romans 2:15 here:
'Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts e ...[text shortened]... icating that the law can be kept even by gentiles, due to the law being written on their hearts?
04 Apr 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeGood stuff......
It will get some groans, but I'm going to raise Romans 2:15 here:
'Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts e ...[text shortened]... icating that the law can be kept even by gentiles, due to the law being written on their hearts?
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeDoesn't cause me to groan, in fact I'm glad you brought it up.
It will get some groans, but I'm going to raise Romans 2:15 here:
'Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts e ...[text shortened]... icating that the law can be kept even by gentiles, due to the law being written on their hearts?
The first three chapters of Romans places man on trial. The verdict is found in chapter 3:19. "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
Consider the entire context from which I drew the verse above.
Romans 3:10-31
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
¶ Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
When quoting scripture one must keep in mind the context, because, a text without a context is a pretext.
See that little symbol at the beginning of certain verses? That symbol indicates a new thought. That may be helpful to know.
Originally posted by @secondsonSo how exactly does what Paul say in Romans 3 change any of this in Romans 2
Doesn't cause me to groan, in fact I'm glad you brought it up.
The first three chapters of Romans places man on trial. The verdict is found in chapter 3:19. "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
Consider the entire ...[text shortened]... e beginning of certain verses? That symbol indicates a new thought. That may be helpful to know.
:For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,
do by nature the things contained in the law, these,
having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,
their conscience also bearing witness,
and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
(Romans 2:11-15 KJV)
There is no context in a subsequent passage which changes a previous passage.
Romans 2 sets the context for Romans 3.
Not the other way around.
Is there some reason why you did not bother explaining exactly what Romans 3 is saying?
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeYou DO know who are the "Gentiles" spoken of here, don't you?
It will get some groans, but I'm going to raise Romans 2:15 here:
'Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts e ...[text shortened]... icating that the law can be kept even by gentiles, due to the law being written on their hearts?
Hint: They are NOT atheists.