07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @rajk999You mean: “take that with you” ๐
Ok. One last point. The only time ones salvation is secure is when the person is one of Christ's sheep. Christ said he will leave the 99 other safe sheep and go after that one lost sheep and bring him home. This does not apply to those who simply profess Christ with their mouth. They are not sheep. The sheep are a particular breed of people who Jesus defin ...[text shortened]... mans 10:9, and Ephesians 2:5 etc etc. These things do not give eternal life.
Go in peace. ๐
Originally posted by @divegeesterYep .. take it and learn... ๐ We learn from each other.
You mean: “take that with you” ๐
There are some here who I cannot learn from
They are not sheep of Christ. Goats do not teach sheep
You are more like the sheep.
Some years ago I was sitting on the fence regarding eternal torment
Now thanks to some of the discussions you raised Im squarely against that doctrine.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @rajk999So let me ask? Are you saying there is actually 4 groups being spoken of by Jesus? First would be the "little flock", second would be the "144,000", third would be the "great crowd" with no number known, and then as you mentioned the last group of humans who would not gain life and would be destroyed at Armageddon? Thanks....
I think you are mistaken.
The little flock Jesus said is the disciples who he sent out to preach.
The 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes as listed in Revelation.
I going with what the Bible says.
Originally posted by @rajk999And I do learn from you and I consider you to be genuine and sincere, just a little extreme. I’m pleased that you now find the notion of eternal suffering abhorrent and I imagine you feel some level of relief as it is a truely terrible teaching, the worst of doctrinal errors imo.
Yep .. take it and learn... ๐ We learn from each other.
There are some here who I cannot learn from
They are not sheep of Christ. Goats do not teach sheep
You are more like the sheep.
Some years ago I was sitting on the fence regarding eternal torment
Now thanks to some of the discussions you raised Im squarely against that doctrine.
I also learn from the atheists and agnostics, their argumentation makes me think about why I believe certain things, to examine doctrine and decide if I was perhaps wrong or imbalanced. Atheist/agnostic examples being; GoaD, FMF, JS359, googlefudge, soothfast, twhithead** (when he wasn’t being moody and pedantic) and several others.
The least I learn from are the supposed Buddhists who are here from time to time; their waffley supercilious ingratiations are like the breeze in my ears, to be blunt but honest.
Edit: **what happened to twhitehead I wonder...
Originally posted by @rajk999Those who seek selflessness and modesty , those who look to help others without expecting reward shall be favoured by JC
It would be interesting to hear some comments from those who have no horse in this race, about what Jesus means here. I get tired of sonship using the passage to condemn those he disagrees with. Here is the whole passage and the gist of what I think Jesus is saying:
- False prophets are like a corrupt tree which produces evil fruit
- Corrupt trees are c ...[text shortened]... and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
(Matthew 7:15-27 KJV)[/i]
Those who seek to elevate themselves while bullying and manipulating others will be shunned
Simple
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterWell of course. But being born again is the confusing part but the scripture you quoted here explains it. So lets break it down.
Do you believe in being spiritually reborn, I.e. being “born again” as taught by Jesus?
[i]Most truly I (Jesus) say to you, unless anyone is born again,f he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”g 4 Nic·o·deสนmus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answe ...[text shortened]... ongs to God it cannot be reversed. Jehovah himself said “no one can be delivered out of my hand”
It says one cannot see the Kingdom of God unless he is reborn in "spirit" not flesh. Flesh or the human body cannot see the Kingdom because the Kingdom is not of the earth or a physical thing to see or touch as a human. The only way to see it or be a part of it is to die which means one is longer of flesh. One would have to be baptized in "water" as a human and then die and then be resurrected as a spirit. Then they would go to heaven and will now be able to see God's kingdom and would become a part of it. This is being "born again" to a new and different life.
Originally posted by @karoly-aczelI agree with that summary of Jesus's teachings.
Those who seek selflessness and modesty , those who look to help others without expecting reward shall be favoured by JC
Those who seek to elevate themselves while bullying and manipulating others will be shunned
Simple
Thanks
07 Apr 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @galveston75There are many more than 4 groups spoken of by Jesus and the Apostles. I would say these are the groups:
So let me ask? Are you saying there is actually 4 groups being spoken of by Jesus? First would be the "little flock", second would be the "144,000", third would be the "great crowd" with no number known, and then as you mentioned the last group of humans who would not gain life and would be destroyed at Armageddon? Thanks....
1. The 12 disciples - head of the 12 tribes of Israel in the millennial Kingdom
2. There is the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation 12,000 x 12 tribes, these rule with Christ
3. The great multitude of believers and followers of Christ from all nations and people
4. The good people who know nothing of Christ spoken of in Romans 2:11-15.
5. The not so good Christian saints who lived average lives who did not obey the commandments of Christ neither did they live in sin .. lukewarm people. these are given a second chance in the millennial Kingdom
6. Those destined for destruction including some Christian saints who are enemies of the cross of Christ, were given the Holy Spirit, and tasted of the world to come .. they will be burned.
And there may be more .. who knows.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @rajk999Yes I agree on there being many groups. But going back now to the 12 tribes being the ones who rule with Jesus and being judges with him as you say, there is an interesting point about this at Matt 19:28 where it says this about those tribes:
There are many more than 4 groups spoken of by Jesus and the Apostles. I would say these are the groups:
1. The 12 disciples - head of the 12 tribes of Israel in the millennial Kingdom
2. There is the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation 12,000 x 12 tribes, these rule with Christ
3. The great multitude of believers and followers of Christ from all nations a ...[text shortened]... , and tasted of the world to come .. they will be burned.
And there may be more .. who knows.
28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel".
So notice here that Jesus says the 12 tribes will be judged by Jesus and the 12 others sitting beside him.
So now this seems a little confusing if as you say those 12 tribes will be judging and ruling with Jesus, where here it says that 12 others sitting on thrones with Jesus are actually judging those 12 tribes.
So now this adds some confusion. Maybe the 12 tribes being spoken of here are actually something else?
Remember back when the 12 tribes existed, the tribe of Levi was actually the judicial tribe given the responsibility to be the spiritual and legal department so to say to handle the spiritual laws and to regulate them among the other tribes.
So is it possible that the 12 sitting with Jesus would now represent the Levi tribe and would be the ones to now with Jesus, be the ones to judge the rest of the world of humans, the "great crowd" or "other flock" that are following Jesus and his Fathers Kingdom who live here on earth? Just a thought......
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @galveston75I think you are confusing it in your mind.
Yes I agree on there being many groups. But going back now to the 12 tribes being the ones who rule with Jesus and being judges with him as you say, there is an interesting point about this at Matt 19:28 where it says this about those tribes:
28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious ...[text shortened]... " that are following Jesus and his Fathers Kingdom who live here on earth? Just a thought......
In the millennial reign of Christ there will be many billions of people.
The rulers with Christ are
- the 12 disciples - they have 12 thrones waiting for them judging the 12 tribes of Israel
- 144,000 taken from the Jews as follows - 12000 from the 12 tribes of Israel - judging the rest of the nations
- there may be others that Jesus chooses from the Gentiles
Your wording is confusing.
My list above is simpler
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterSorry but the bible does not contradict itself ever. It's ones own misunderstandings that seems to make contradictions.
There is some apparent biblical contradiction on this point (as there is on many points). I know where you stand on this and I no desire to go over it with you again, and again and again.
You will not change my mind; I have read most of your posts over the years and there is nothing you have said that impacted on this matter. And I will not change y ...[text shortened]... whatsoever in adopting your fear any more than I have in adopting sonships fear of eternal hell.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @rajk999Sorry. But we actually agree on many things here, but there are still a few we don't. I'll get you to see the my way soon. Lol
I think you are confusing it in your mind.
In the millennial reign of Christ there will be many billions of people.
The rulers with Christ are
- the 12 disciples - they have 12 thrones waiting for them judging the 12 tribes of Israel
- 144,000 taken from the Jews as follows - 12000 from the 12 tribes of Israel - judging the rest of the nations
- th ...[text shortened]... s that Jesus chooses from the Gentiles
Your wording is confusing.
My list above is simpler
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @rajk999You're over complicating this issue.
You do not understand what is the purpose of the death of Christ.
You do not understand what Paul means by the word 'SAVED".
You continue to misunderstand these things because you are comfortably deluded into thinking that the death of Christ gives you eternal life without you having to live righteously.
I asked you questions pertaining to these things ...[text shortened]... an saints will not inherit the Kingdom of God if they do not live righteously and do good works.
I take it that you believe that while Christ died for our sins it is incumbent upon us to do something to earn the salvation provided by Christ sacrificial death.
07 Apr 18
Originally posted by @secondsonI know this is for Rajk but see if this helps. Jesus did a teaching work that he did many times and in many places. He also had his direct followers with him most of the time and Jesus was constantly teaching them to learn how to teach and bring that info about him, his Father and about the future plans that are going to happen with our earth and the wickedness on it now which is a result of Satan and what his fathers Kingdom is going to do about fixing all of the problems. Pretty important stuff wouldn't you say. So Jesus taught that knowledge will probably mean life for most of mankind on a perfect earth someday. So in Matthew Jesus basically commanded his followers to do just as he taught and that command is still a go for today. He has never cancelled that command as of yet.
You're over complicating this issue.
I take it that you believe that while Christ died for our sins it is incumbent upon us to do something to earn the salvation provided by Christ sacrificial death.
So is this important for being saved or in just living and doing good in his eyes? One has to answer that within themselves but personally knowing Jesus told me to share this info from the bible on the future to ones who don't know the bible and knowing it could mean either life or death for that person not having an understanding of the Bible and of the future, I take it dead seriously as a command from Jesus.
So maybe if I don't take it seriously it may not count with me and my future life, maybe I don't earn points so to say in helping me gain life, but........if I don't do this teaching work that Jesus told us to do and not show my faithfulness to Jesus in doing as he says to do, how do you think Jesus will view me when we are judged? Just saying.......
But as has been discussed, my experience with ones who say they are already saved, seems to be one of arrogance at times and one of looking down on doing this teaching work that Jesus said to do as it's not really important. How do you think Jesus and his Father would view them?
Also Jesus dying for or sins does not relieve us of our responsibilities of the teaching work. It only forgives us of our sins for that day.
Originally posted by @secondsonTake the example of the Ephesians which I raised and which I notice you ignored.
You're over complicating this issue.
I take it that you believe that while Christ died for our sins it is incumbent upon us to do something to earn the salvation provided by Christ sacrificial death.
For sure you will continue to ignore it because what Paul teaches here is contrary to your belief. But its in the bible.
Paul said to the Christian Saints at Ephesus:
- they were brought out of a life of sin
- they were saved by the blood of Christ
- it is not through any good works that God saved them
- Gods who is rich in mercy brought them out of sin and death
- they have a new life in Christ
- Their lives must be one of righteousness and good works
- Those Christians who fail will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
This is the whole of Pauls teachings and it is in all of the letters to the churches.
But I know ... you are a cherry picker.
You like the saved part
You dont like the works and righteousness part.
Not everyone is destined for the Kingdom of God
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