@fmf said
What bearing does Matthew 12:33-35 have on your condemnation of the Sultan of Brunei's new laws?

What is good and evil? If its all personal opinion how can one have a good heart and another a evil one?

@kellyjay said
What is good and evil? If its all personal opinion how can one have a good heart and another a evil one?

We can't change the facts of life and this basic element of the human condition.

You can tout your "personal opinion" as much as you want. That's all we are doing here. Exchanging ideas and opinions.

The process is one of evaluating and comparing our subjectivities.

If you can't tell the difference between someone with "a good heart" and someone with "an evil one", perhaps your religious beliefs have rendered your moral compass dysfunctional.

@kellyjay said
If its just your perspective than if I disagree with you, am I what to you then, an enemy?

"Enemy"? What are you on about?

@kellyjay said
It is my opinion it’s wrong no matter everyone’s opinions.

FMF: It is your opinion that the Sultan of Brunei's new laws are "evil" or it is your opinion that the Sultan of Brunei's new laws are not "evil", which?

KellyJay: It is my opinion it’s wrong no matter everyone’s opinions.

What do your religious texts tell you about the punishments for adultery and gay sex?

@kellyjay said
If its just your perspective than if I disagree with you, am I what to you then, an enemy? This does seem to be the path many people take, disagreement means hate.

But you have agreed that the new laws about executing homosexuals in Brunai are immoral, you agree with FMF on that, and that’s a good thing.

But it does prove that morals are subjective.

@kellyjay said
Quite right, and those same issues can have others in complete disagreement with those that do converge and agreeing with each other. If we cannot even discern what is good or bad what does that make us, blind? Do you think those that made the law under discussion think its good? Should anyone be held to a meaningless standard, if there is no such thing as a real good? If we ...[text shortened]... his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.

Morality is subjective.

Why is this?

Because there is no moral law giver and all morals are 'man-made.'

@wolfgang59 said
2+2

Let me see. If I have a 2 and then add another 2 to the original 2 I would have 4 or maybe 22. Depends upon my perspective.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Morality is subjective.

Why is this?

Because there is no moral law giver and all morals are 'man-made.'

That is the foundation that must come from a godless universe, it logically follows given how you view all things. It doesn’t mean you are right, it only follows that if everything you accept as real, is as you believe it is. I grant you that; however, your world view is not consistent.

@kellyjay said
That is the foundation that must come from a godless universe, it logically follows given how you view all things. It doesn’t mean you are right, it only follows that if everything you accept as real, is as you believe it is. I grant you that; however, your world view is not consistent.

Yes. In a godless universe morality forms in different societies (though with significant commonality) and is by nature subjective and changeable.

In a Christian universe God is unchanging and the theist has to struggle with the questionable morality of the Old testament that is rooted in time.

I know which I prefer.

@kellyjay said
That is the foundation that must come from a godless universe, it logically follows given how you view all things.

Because supernatural things are the stuff of speculation, Ghost of a Duke's "godless universe" premise is subjective, as is his moral compass - which he bases on what he has been exposed to, including his non-religious beliefs.

Meanwhile, your "godful universe" premise is subjective, as is your moral compass - which you base on what you have been exposed to, including your religious beliefs.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Yes. In a godless universe morality forms in different societies (though with significant commonality) and is by nature subjective and changeable.

In a Christian universe God is unchanging and the theist has to struggle with the questionable morality of the Old testament that is rooted in time.

I know which I prefer.

It is more complex than that.

@fmf said
Because supernatural things are the stuff of speculation, Ghost of a Duke's "godless universe" premise is subjective, as is his moral compass - which he bases on what he has been exposed to, including his non-religious beliefs.

Meanwhile, your "godful universe" premise is subjective, as is your moral compass - which you base on what you have been exposed to, including your religious beliefs.

Atheistic world views are also the stuff of speculation, you are always pointing that we look and speculate. Assuming that we must limit all possible sources for what we can see and measure itself is a speculation. The supernatural doesn’t necessarily mean anything outside of reality, but things not limited by our laws of nature.

If God is real He is as real as it gets! Our laws are simply the order we see around us they themselves don’t cause anything. CS Lewis pointed out that the laws of motion can predict where a billiard ball will go once it is hit, the law itself will not cause the ball to move on its own.

@caissad4 said
Let me see. If I have a 2 and then add another 2 to the original 2 I would have 4 or maybe 22. Depends upon my perspective.

Life rarely is simple!

@kellyjay said
If God is real He is as real as it gets!

Good for you. But this belief doesn't make your personal opinions about morality "objective".

@kellyjay said
The supernatural doesn’t necessarily mean anything outside of reality, but things not limited by our laws of nature.

You are at liberty to believe what you want. But your certainty and sincerity about what you DO happen to believe about supernatural things do not make your religious underpinning for your personal opinions about moral matters anything other than subjective and a product of your 'nurture' and 'nature'.