The "free gift"

@ghost-of-a-duke said
To be clear, you totally reject passages like Ephesians 2:8-9?

'God's Word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works.'


Jesus Himself said, 'Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

How is that a case of works trumping faith?

In John 8 Jesus was addressing the crooked Pharisees. Here is my opinion on this ... note the word opinion. There are two main groups of people.

1. The elect of God - a chosen group of disciples and righteous followers of Christ who keep the commandments. These escape judgment and all go to be with Christ after death, or even caught up with Jesus in the air as described by Paul in Thessalonians. Jesus said these will never die. These rule with Christ in the millennium.

2. Others who will face judgement as described in Matt 25, both alive and dead. This is the final judgment. Some will be welcomed into the Kingdom of God and the rest will be condemned.

Many of group 2, of which the Pharisees are part, died in their sins, but will be raised to face judgment. That is all Christ meant. Dying in your sins is not a final death sentence. People will be raised and judged according to their works. Jesus was pointing out that they were evil and they will be judged.

Again Jesus statements to a select group in the temple cannot constitute a basic doctrine applicable to all people, when Jesus said no such thing when he preached to the thousands. Jesus's preaching is 99% about good works and righteousness and 1% about faith. That is how I know works trump faith.

@rajk999 said

Jesus's preaching is 99% about good works and righteousness and 1% about faith. That is how I know works trump faith.

I think these verses carry more gravitas:

"Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20)

"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." (John 7:38)

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I think these verses carry more gravitas:

"Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20)

"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." (John 7:38)

I'd like to see a demonstration of the first; anyone here who professes to have faith care to have a go at moving a mountain?

If it can't be done then either nobody actually has any faith, or Matthew is talking out of his hat.

Anyone....?

@indonesia-phil said
I'd like to see a demonstration of the first; anyone here who professes to have faith care to have a go at moving a mountain?

If it can't be done then either nobody actually has any faith, or Matthew is talking out of his hat.

Anyone....?

I don't believe what Jesus said was purely metaphorical there, but simply because I or another don't have that level of faith doesn't mean it isn't real or true.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I think these verses carry more gravitas:

"Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20)

"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." (John 7:38)

Jesus was actually telling people that they really have no faith. Same situation with Peter trying to walk on water, and he was sinking. His faith was worthless. How many times Jesus used the expression "O faithless generation ... " How about this one " ... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8 KJV)

The smallest possible grain of faith will lead to great miracles. Nobody has that. What Christians do is profess to have faith. All they go to judgment with is their works. But they have condemned good works and ridiculed it.

@rajk999 said
Your question was answered clearly by Jesus Christ.

Jesus described lots of things, lots of attitudes and lots of behaviours. But I’m asking you to substantiate your claim that salvation only comes through works.

So…

1) specifically what types of good works, what quantity of them and what frequency of them must a person do to be sure of achieving their own salvation?

2) Are breaks in these good works permitted, if so for how long? Would a day be permitted without losing one’s salvation? What about a week, or a month or a year?

3) what would happen if this person didn’t do any of these good works for a period of time before they died, would they lose their salvation?

@rajk999 said
In John 8 Jesus was addressing the crooked Pharisees. Here is my opinion on this ... note the word opinion. There are two main groups of people.

1. The elect of God - a chosen group of disciples and righteous followers of Christ who keep the commandments. These escape judgment and all go to be with Christ after death, or even caught up with Jesus in the air as descri ...[text shortened]... is 99% about good works and righteousness and 1% about faith. That is how I know works trump faith.

You recall @sonship’s take on the deification of man (or some of them anyway) — I wonder if item 1. was what turned his wits.

@divegeester said
Jesus described lots of things, lots of attitudes and lots of behaviours. But I’m asking you to substantiate your claim that salvation only comes through works.

So…

1) specifically what types of good works, what quantity of them and what frequency of them must a person do to be sure of achieving their own salvation?

2) Are breaks in these good works permitted, ...[text shortened]... t do any of these good works for a period of time before they died, would they lose their salvation?

Lets start with this " salvation only comes through works "

Please quote where I said that.

@moonbus said
You recall @sonship’s take on the deification of man (or some of them anyway) — I wonder if item 1. was what turned his wits.

Yes indeed. These references in the bible to the elect of God, some believers never dying, or facing judgment, and going to be with Christ, are all blown out of proportion by many Christian churches. In sonship's case his claim was that all people who profess faith, [ .. like saying O Lord, 3 times or something along those lines] gives that person eternal life immediately and that can never be revoked. Other passages can be twisted to prove that these people eventually reach a deified state. It takes a lot of twisting but it is possible.

@rajk999 said
Lets start with this " salvation only comes through works "

Please quote where I said that.

"Again Jesus statements to a select group in the temple cannot constitute a basic doctrine applicable to all people, when Jesus said no such thing when he preached to the thousands. Jesus's preaching is 99% about good works and righteousness and 1% about faith. That is how I know works trump faith."

@kellyjay said
"Again Jesus statements to a select group in the temple cannot constitute a basic doctrine applicable to all people, when Jesus said no such thing when he preached to the thousands. Jesus's preaching is 99% about good works and righteousness and 1% about faith. That is how I know works trump faith."

Go have your head examined.

@rajk999 said
Go have your head examined.

KellyJay disintegrated in 2022. He stopped conversing in good faith. It became a constant flow of informal fallacies.

@fmf said
KellyJay disintegrated in 2022. He stopped conversing in good faith. It became a constant flow of informal fallacies.

You are being very diplomatic. I think the man has gone insane.

@rajk999 said
Yes indeed. These references in the bible to the elect of God, some believers never dying, or facing judgment, and going to be with Christ, are all blown out of proportion by many Christian churches. In sonship's case his claim was that all people who profess faith, [ .. like saying O Lord, 3 times or something along those lines] gives that person eternal life immediately an ...[text shortened]... that these people eventually reach a deified state. It takes a lot of twisting but it is possible.

That's the thing about scripture, it is so contradictory and easy to manipulate. The last week I have been championing the faith camp (and backed this up with solid scripture) but could quite easily do the same this week for the works camp.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
That's the thing about scripture, it is so contradictory and easy to manipulate. The last week I have been championing the faith camp (and backed this up with solid scripture) but could quite easily do the same this week for the works camp.

You agree with scripture, it is acknowledged that we can take it and twist it to suit our desires if that is all we want, that is what we do. How can a man get right with God, by obeying the law, or by doing enough good works to add to what Jesus did, or trust in the grace of God by faith?


2 Peter 3:15-17
English Standard Version
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.