re-posted from page 56
Originally posted by divegeester
You asked "what question?" Here it is:
You keep claiming that you don't know if people will be suffering eternally after death, therefore how can you claim that not believing in such eternal suffering, is or isn't a Christian belief?
It is a simple question aimed directly at you telling us that you "don't know".
Originally posted by lemon lime
But now I do know, or did you miss my recent message explaining that I now know what 'worm' means?
And now that this question has been answered (for both of us) maybe you would be so kind as to not ignore/deflect/evade my message to you on page 15 of this thread.
posted by divegeester
I told you I did not believe that the lake of fire was literal. What it represents is irrelevant.
posted by lemon lime
You could at least offer some hint or explanation of what you think it represents, because simply saying it's a metaphor is not enough. Calling the lake of fire a metaphor because it doesn't appeal to you or seem right is not a persuasive argument... it's meaningless unless you are able illustrate what you believe the lake of fire represents.
Metaphors (in the Bible) are easily distinguishable from statements meant to be taken literally. Symbolism more often than not come with explanations, either within the same text or elsewhere in the Bible. For example, prophesies alluding to horns and beasts (and mountains) refer to nations and kingdoms, and it's commonly understood that the word "horn" denotes strength, power and dominion.
If the lake of fire is not literal then what it represents is relevant, but what can a 'metaphorical' lake of fire represent other than the image of a consuming fire?
You were essentially saying you cannot answer the question because you don't know what it represents (The Lake of Fire) but at the same time you know it's irrelevant. How can you know it's irrelevant if you don't know what it means? And how can it be irrelevant if it goes to the heart of whether or not there will be eternal suffering? How can you know it (The Lake of Fire) is a metaphor (not literal) if you don't know what it represents?
It seems your entire argument (as well as defense of your argument) is hopelessly dependent on what you don't know.
edit: It's also hopelessly dependent on FMF attempting to spam and get responses until something you don't want to deal with disappears into the back pages.
Originally posted by FMFre-posted from page 56
So how does "the question of what the 'worm' is" affect what your beliefs now are regarding "eternal torture"?
Originally posted by lemon lime to FMF
Good grief...
I now know what "and the worm dieth not" means. Do you want me find the page for you?
edit: page 50
posted by lemon lime
The Lake of Fire is not Hell. Hell and The Lake of Fire are two different places. I have been saying that I don't know if The Lake of Fire is eternal or not. But just recently I've learned what "and their worm never dies" means, so it does appear there is some eternal aspect to torment in the Lake of Fire.
I don't know why you're having so much trouble understanding this. But If you try really hard to remember what I'm saying here in this message, then maybe you won't have to work so hard at keeping your own story straight.
If you do a quick search of messages before page 50 you can find a short exchange between GB and myself where he explains what the 'worm' is. I then searched for the meaning of 'worm' and then happened to find a definition confirming what GB said. But assuming you already know this (which I do assume) there's apparently some other question on your mind that you have not clearly stated.
But if all you want to do is to keep going until this page is buried, then none of this matters because I'll re-post the same message to divegeester from page 56 to page 58 or 59.
Originally posted by lemon limeYes, there is something that you could clearly state. Equipped as you are with your new, day-and-a-half old belief, do you now suddenly claim to "know" that death is not the end for those who don't make it to "heaven", and do you also now "know" that those not "saved" are not destroyed and that, instead, there is a punishment that awaits them which is "eternal torture"? Can you make a statement about your new belief regarding this?
If you do a quick search of messages before page 50 you can find a short exchange between GB and myself where he explains what the 'worm' is. I then searched for the meaning of 'worm' and then happened to find a definition confirming what GB said. But assuming you already know this (which I do assume) there's apparently some other question on your mind that you have not clearly stated.
Originally posted by FMFAren't you more interested in the statement you are making?
Yes, there is something that you could clearly state. Equipped as you are with your new, day-and-a-half old belief, do you now suddenly claim to "know" that death is not the end for those who don't make it to "heaven", and do you also now "know" that those not "saved" are not destroyed and that, instead, there is a punishment that awaits them which is "eternal torture"? Can you make a statement about your new belief regarding this?
Nevertheless, since you've gone to the trouble of feigning interest in my opinion...
from (yawn) page 50
Originally posted by lemon lime and again being re-posted here in order to indulge a slow witted reader who shall remain unnamed although anyone with half a brain knows who it is and why he keeps asking the same question over and over again as though he doesn't have a point of his own to make but that's okay because I don't really take the fool seriously enough to be bothered by this
...it does appear there is some eternal aspect to torment in the Lake of Fire.
Originally posted by lemon limeWhat does your phrase "some eternal aspect to torment" mean in clear terms? Why does this "aspect" only appear to exist to you? What other aspects are there? Is there also "some [non-]eternal aspect to torment"? Why not just make a clear statement about your brand new belief?
[b]...it does appear there is some eternal aspect to torment in the Lake of Fire.[/b]
Originally posted by lemon limeI understand that having a 36 hour old belief could make a person hesitant about making an unequivocal statement about that belief. Do you want to give your brand new belief in eternal torture a few more hours to settle ~ maybe wait till it's two days old ~ and then make a clear declaration of what you claim to "know" to be true?
Originally posted by lemon lime and again being re-posted here in order to indulge a slow witted reader who shall remain unnamed although anyone with half a brain knows who it is and why he keeps asking the same question over and over again as though he doesn't have a point of his own to make but that's okay because I don't really take the fool seriously enough to be bothered by this
Originally posted by lemon limeWhat's interesting to me is that, literally just 'the other day', you suddenly decided to subscribe to what I see as the most depraved and grotesque ideological notion the human imagination has ever dreamt up ~ billions of people being incinerated but kept alive for that purpose, all as a punishment for a thoughtcrime ~ and you have done this because of five words, one of which is "worm" - the meaning of which Christians don't agree on - taken from a transcript of a supposed vision someone had centuries ago, and this has all happened because of what someone said to you on an internet message board. Make no mistake, my interest in your behaviour and mindmap is genuine.
Aren't you more interested in the statement you are making?
Originally posted by FMFI will be re-posting my response to divegeester if he doesn't answer or attempt to offer an honest reply. So if you think he needs the kind of help you are offering him right now, or think it will help him in any way you are wrong.... it's not going to work.
I understand that having a 36 hour old belief could make a person hesitant about making an unequivocal statement about that belief. Do you want to give your brand new belief in eternal torture a few more hours to settle ~ maybe wait till it's two days old ~ and then make a clear declaration of what you claim to "know" to be true?
Everyone knows how you will jump in to run interference for him whenever he gets into trouble. So you're not fooling anyone, and all you've done is confirm for me that divegeester will indeed have trouble replying to my response to one of his questions.
Originally posted by lemon limeI will be re-posting my response to divegeester if he doesn't answer or attempt to offer an honest reply. So if you think he needs the kind of help you are offering him right now, or think it will help him in any way you are wrong.... it's not going to work.
Everyone knows how you will jump in to run interference for him whenever he gets into trouble. So you're not fooling anyone, and all you've done is confirm for me that divegeester will indeed have trouble replying to my response to one of his questions.
This is pure evasion on your part. My questions are point blank ~ on topic ~ addressed directly to you ~ refer to things you have said to me or posted in messages to me ~ and you should be able to answer them without reference to any other poster or what he has or hasn't said to you. Why not just make an unequivocal statement about your new belief?
Originally posted by FMFWell then, genuinely try to understand this. Hell is not eternal... it can't be eternal because it will be tossed into the Lake of Fire. So the salient question should be (and should have been all along) is whether or not torment in the Lake of Fire will be eternal.
What's interesting to me is that, literally just 'the other day', you suddenly decided to subscribe to what I see as the most depraved and grotesque ideological notion the human imagination has ever dreamt up ~ billions of people being incinerated but kept alive for that purpose, all as a punishment for a thoughtcrime ~ and you have done this because of f ...[text shortened]... n internet message board. Make no mistake, my interest in your behaviour and mindmap is genuine.
I thought everything was destroyed in the Lake of Fire, but that one statement 'the worm does not die' was a mystery to me up until a day or so ago. And you've been suggesting there is something odd about my learning this a day or so ago. So do you think it's odd that a man in mid-sixties can learn something he didn't know before? Probably not, it's more likely you've been trying to suggest I'm lying without coming right out and saying so.
The mistake you've been making is mixing your own personal feelings in with (what you've portray as) a debate, or perhaps as an intellectual conversation, when in fact all you and dive have been doing is demonstrating how abhorred you feel. It's been nothing but Argument From Incredulity with you two... you've been trying to prove it's not true because you believe it can't be true because it abhors you.