19 Jun 21
@sonship saidYou are true and consistent mouth worshipper at heart. All that twisting, turning, and manipulating the teachings of Christ to support mouth worship ... lol 😀 Are you going to twist all the places Christ speaks of damnation to evil doers, the same way? So you sleep well at night know that your doctrine is contrary to Christ?
Could Jesus have meant that "those who have done good" mean those who have not believed in Him yet did good deeds?
In the same chapter Jesus said to those who did not honor the Son did not honor the Father who sent the Son.
"In order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (v.23)
@sonship saidYou re wrong. How many times must the passages be quoted to you where Jesus himself condemns those who honours him with their mouth? Honouring with the mouth is condemned. Jesus wants honouring him with your heart.
[P]racticed evil must start with the evil of not hearing the Son, not believing in the Son, not honoring the Son as one would honor God the Father.
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Mark 7:6-7 KJV)
In vain, do people honour Christ with their lips
Jesus says failure to do this means you are a hypocrite
@sonship saidHow can you possibly have "assurance of salvation" if you might not obey the commandments and do good works for the rest of your life?
Rajk999 persists in a false accusation against Christians who believe in the assurance of salvation. He says to have assurance is to encourage disobedience to the commandments of Christ.
Surely you must not disobey the commandments and surely if you don't do good works your faith will be dead? None of that is "assured", is it?
Surely you can't have "assurance of salvation" until God has judged you once you die?
19 Jun 21
@divegeester saidNo need to thank me.
You seem to want to be furtive, ok.
Let me ask another question then.
“Do you consider yourself saved, not saved, not known whether you are saved or not?
Thanks in advance for your honesty.
Furtive? You do me an injustice.
On the question of being saved I don't honestly know. I hope that I would be forgiven for my sins, but I have been a bad boy at times. I am not acting or working on the basis that I'm already saved. My drivers are quite different.
I cringe at the things that I have done in the past, and if I could roll back time and undue every hurt and wrong thing that I have done I would gladly do so. The amount of misery that I must have cause hangs over me, maybe that is repentance?
I hope that this answers your question to your satisfaction, but if not let me know and I will clarify (within reason).
@fmf saidSonship preaches the teachings of men. There is no "assurance of salvation" expression in the bible. The closest thing to assurance is what Jesus said:
How can you possibly have "assurance of salvation" if you might not obey the commandments and do good works for the rest of your life?
Surely you must not disobey the commandments and surely if you don't do good works your faith will be dead? None of that is "assured", is it?
Surely you can't have "assurance of salvation" until God has judged you once you die?
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28 KJV)
Jesus was crystal clear here.
Its HIS SHEEP,
who hears HIS VOICE.
And FOLLOW HIM
These are the ones who hear and keep the commandments. Sonship hears another voice.
@medullah saidCorrect. Its a gift of God, granted only when the course is finished as Paul said.
@Rajk999
And this nicely made point is why I make no assumptions.
If any of us are granted life it is through undeserved kindness, a gift.
I don't think that anyone has the right to assume, but we can hope.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV)
Paul also warned that he himself can be a cast out if he did not do what God wants him to do
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Corinthians 9:25-27 KJV)
The wise Christian keeps the commandments and live with the hope of eternal life.. Sonship is bypassing the commandments and judgment of Christ and beating the air, taking what is not his.
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19 Jun 21
2 edits
This thread was intended to be about the question -
Could "perish" in (John 3:16) simply mean die ?
Rajk999 turns just about EVERY thread into an argument about the assurance of salvation. If there are started 137 threads, Rajk999 will be sure that all 137 will be a debate against the assurance of eternal redemption and eternal life.
This thread is not another debate about the assurance of salvation if I can help it. It is about , just reading the word "perish" in John 3:16 what can we know about its meaning?
I thank the contributors who have stuck to this theme for their thoughts.
@sonship saidDid I first use the expression "assurance of salvation" in this thread?
This thread was intended to be about the question -
Could "perish" in (John 3:16) simply mean die ?
Rajk999 turns just about EVERY thread into an argument about the assurance of salvation. If there are started 137 threads, Rajk999 will be sure that all 137 will be a debate against the assurance of eternal redemption and eternal life.
This thr ...[text shortened]... its meaning?
I thank the contributors who have stuck to this theme for their thoughts.
No. That was you.
Plus you are desperately trying to convince yourself that the word 'perish' means something else.
Yet another failed doctrine.
@sonship saidYou started the talk about "the assurance of salvation" on page 5. You're the one who started it. Nobody else. Come on, sonship. Don't be so low-integrity.
Rajk999 turns just about EVERY thread into an argument about the assurance of salvation. If there are started 137 threads, Rajk999 will be sure that all 137 will be a debate against the assurance of eternal redemption and eternal life.
19 Jun 21
@sonship saidActually I just mentioned to Liljo, who had basically destroyed much of your Witness Lee beliefs on OSAS, with his very first post, that you are a OSAS person. I dont care to go over that failed doctrine. You are the one that seems to think you need to defend the indefensible. You continued on with assurance of salvation", another expression not in the bible. All your doctrines are no biblical ALL
@Rajk999
Did I first use the expression "assurance of salvation" in this thread?
When you begin your railings against OSAS that is what you are again arguing over.
- Triune God
- Eternal torment for all unbelievers
- Assurance of Salvation for mouth worshipers
- Eternal Soul
- Righteousness is not required
Everything you preach runs contrary to Christ.
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19 Jun 21
4 edits
So if I'm right Son what you are driving at is that on one hand we have a group of people that perish, yet on the other at 5:29 we have possibly a contradiction as there are those that are sinners that have been resurrected to judgement? Have I got it?
Let me take this a chunk at a time to see if I can communicate clearly.
So if I'm right Son what you are driving at is that on one hand we have a group of people that perish,
Let's see. On one hand Jesus tells us in John 3:16 some will not perish. Perhaps we don't know enough by chapter 3 what perish exactly means. But we do know by 3:16 there are those who likely will perish and those who will not.
I think up to here we're on the same page.
yet on the other at 5:29 we have possibly a contradiction as there are those that are sinners that have been resurrected to judgement? Have I got it?
No, that was not MY intention to state.
Rather than a "YET" it was from my perspective a corresponding situation.
Rather than a "YET" and a contradiction I was asking is there a CORRESPONDENCE, a consistent parallel.
Those in the tombs are divided into two groups here.
"And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (5:29)
My point (which may have latter gotten obscured) was -
Consider that the dichotomy of the perished and the eternal life in 3:16 is
the same as the dichotomy of the resurrection of life (those who have done good) and the resurrection of judgment (those who have practiced evil) of John 5:29.
That was all my original intention was when going over to chapter 5.
Ie. perish relates to the advent of being resurrected to a judgment from Christ.
That's all.
Do you see a parallel between John 3:16 and John 5:28,29 shedding SOME light on what "perish" could entail in John 3:16 ?
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19 Jun 21
1 edit
- Triune God
- Eternal torment for all unbelievers
- Assurance of Salvation for mouth worshipers
- Eternal Soul
- Righteousness is not required
Everything you preach runs contrary to Christ.
Concerning "Triune God" I have confidence you could find me writing that.
Concerning "- Eternal torment for all unbelievers" you could me referring many times to Rev. 20:15 at the close of the Bible saying something about the destination of all those whose names will not be found in the book of life.
Concerning "Righteousness is not required" I have zero confidence you could EVER locate a sentence written by me stating that. Go get one.
Concerning "Eternal Soul" you will not find anywhere me using that as a phrase in so far as arguing that the Bible uses that phrase. That is a phrase of Greek philosophy.
Concerning "Assurance of mouth worshippers" "mouth worshippers" is your phrase.
Though it is tempting to once again defend certain clear passages, this thread I would like to stick mostly to the meaning of "perish" in John 3:16 if we are not told explicitly by that time by the Lord Jesus what "perish" would mean.
Its a public forum and I cannot stop you from getting on your usual platform to rail against the assurance of salvation, ie. "NO OSAS". I cannot stop you from being the one note piano player that you always are here.
19 Jun 21
@sonship saidMy one note is the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ.
@Rajk999
- Triune God
- Eternal torment for all unbelievers
- Assurance of Salvation for mouth worshipers
- Eternal Soul
- Righteousness is not required
Everything you preach runs contrary to Christ.
Concerning "Triune God" I have confidence you could find me writing that.
Concerning "- Eternal torment for all unbelievers" you could me referrin ...[text shortened]... n, ie. "NO OSAS". I cannot stop you from being the one note piano player that you always are here.
This is the truth and the way to eternal life.