Could "perish" simply mean die?

@liljo said
Maybe it means exactly the opposite of "eternal life."

As in "eternal death." The old saying about being "born again" (more correctly, born from above) touches on this: Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.

If you think of it in biblical terms, what was the very first lie? The evil one told Eve, "you shall not really die." Every religion in the world essentially att ...[text shortened]... as well as granted everlasting life in the presence of the Sovereign Creator of the Universe.

"

Good post. If I may expand on one point. To accept Gods gift of eternal life one accepts with ones heart and not ones mouth which is the critical thing. Mouth acceptance saying Lord, Lord ... alone is not sufficient, was condemned by Christ, and is tantamount to rejection. The wise man keeps the commandments [this is a sign of acceptance] and he gets eternal life, while the foolish man does not keep the commandments [he rejects God / Christ] and is cast out. These are the words Christ.

@rajk999 said
A Jew. Sonship will not be happy with your answers. He is a OSAS, ie, those who profess they believe in Jesus Christ, get eternal life immediately and they can never die, even though they may live a life of sin.

Nope. I'm not Jewish. I do study the Scriptures in the biblical languages, however, and will oftentimes use Hebrew words such as "shalom" which has a much richer meaning than simply saying "peace."

I DEFINITELY believe one receives salvation simply based upon the graciousness of God, and they then have an internally planted desire to please Him, which can only be done by keeping His commandments.

We don't "obey the commandments to be saved." We obey them BECAUSE we are "saved."

Many people "obey" begrudgingly to some extent, based upon their fear of "hell fire." That is not love. God desires our LOVE. Love must be given, it cannot be forced.

And biblical love can well be defined as: "Seeking the best interest of someone else in disregard to oneself." It is the exact obvious of "selfish" which is "seeking one's own best interest in disregard for others."

"For God so sought the best interest of the world that, in disregard to Himself He gave His only begotten Son..." would be a good way to interpret the beginning of John 3:16.

I'm not replying to you, Raj, as any attempt to school you. Your notation of the importance of obeying God is proof that we have much in common.

And again, SHALOM!

@liljo said
Nope. I'm not Jewish. I do study the Scriptures in the biblical languages, however, and will oftentimes use Hebrew words such as "shalom" which has a much richer meaning than simply saying "peace."

I DEFINITELY believe one receives salvation simply based upon the graciousness of God, and they then have an internally planted desire to please Him, which can only be done by kee ...[text shortened]... commandments.

We don't "obey the commandments to be saved." We obey them BECAUSE we are "saved."

Salvation is the gift of God. Salvation is act of God giving Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the world. Eternal life [is another matter ] is granted upon proving that you are worthy of eternal life, and this is done by keeping the commandments.

This what you said is correct : We don't "obey the commandments to be saved." We obey them BECAUSE we are "saved."

So therefore a professed Christians says he is saved by Christ, but does not keep the commandments, what is his position? Clearly he is not saved, neither can her inherit the Kingdom of God [Pauls words]

@liljo said

And biblical love can well be defined as: "Seeking the best interest of someone else in disregard to oneself." It is the exact obvious of "selfish" which is "seeking one's own best interest in disregard for others."

Correct -
Paul said charity / love is greater than faith.
Jesus said that people will be judged and given eternal life on the basis of love and charity shown to others, and failure to show this charitable love leads to eternal damnation.

OF course Jesus will know the heart and who is obeying begrudgingly or for the wrong reasons.

@Liljo


Shalom to you as well.
That's what I call fellowship.

My first question is about this -

What did God tell Adam would happen if he sinned in the Garden of Eden?
He told him he would DIE. He didn't say, "if you disobey you will die, then be resurrected from your physical death to be tormented in flames for eternity."

You seem to point out that in Genesis nothing is said about judgment of sinful men other than they will die? Adam for his sin will return to the dust.

Just with Genesis nothing pertaining to punishment is revealed by God other than returning to the dust from which we came?

Is that right?

@Rajk999
I believe we are in agreement!

@sonship said
@Liljo




My first question is about this -

What did God tell Adam would happen if he sinned in the Garden of Eden?
He told him he would DIE. He didn't say, "if you disobey you will die, then be resurrected from your physical death to be tormented in flames for eternity."

You seem to point out that in Genesis nothing is said about judgm ...[text shortened]... hment is revealed by God other than returning to the dust from which we came?

Is that right?

Yes. The Creator told Adam he would die, and, as if to explain what He meant by "death" He informed Adam that just as he came from the dust, so he would return to it. Before Adam was created, Adam did not exist. After physical death, if not for action upon God's part, man's existence is simply over.

Genesis begins the progressive revelation of God's Word. When God created Adam, it wasn't God's intention that Adam EVER die. He intended to create a being (human) that had the capability to CHOOSE TO LOVE ITS CREATOR FOREVER.

But, through sin came death. God's love for His human creation is so overwhelmingly powerful that He Himself made provision whereby humans can STILL choose to LOVE THE CREATOR FOREVER.

And how do we love Him? Read John 14:21.

@Liljo


Shalom in the Lord Jesus. Shalom.

You mentioned lake of fire as unique to the book of Revelation.

Take note of what the Lake of Fire in Revelation symbolizes. . .

First appearance: Revelation 19:20
. . .
Second appearance:Revelation 20:10
. . .
Third appearance: Revelation 20:14-15 (shows the Lake of Fire symbolizes the 2nd death):
. . .
Fourth and final appearance: Revelation 21:8
. . .

That was very clear. How would you think about the Old Testament book of Daniel in his prophetic visions of the future? Could this pre-new covenant age prophetic vision involve said "lake of fire"?

"I watched until thrones were set,
And the Ancient of Days sat down.
His clothing was like white snow,
And His hair of His head was like pure wool;

His throne was flames of fire,
A stream of fire issued forth and came before Him.
Thousands of thousands ministered to Him,
And ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him.

The court of judgement sat.
And the books were opened.

I watched then because of the sound of the great things that the horn was speaking, I watched until the beast was slain and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.

As for the rests of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was given them for a season and a time." (Dan. 7:9-12)

Do you think anything in this vision concerns the same "lake of fire" spoken of in Revelation?

@liljo said

But, through sin came death. God's love for His human creation is so overwhelmingly powerful that He Himself made provision whereby humans can STILL choose to LOVE THE CREATOR FOREVER.

And how do we love Him? Read John 14:21.

You sound like me. I have quoted John 14:21 for sonship dozens of times and he refuses to accept that Jesus said that love can only be demonstrated by the keeping of the commandments. Sonship has a fixation with mouth worship and has started dozens of threads advising people to profess love with their mouth and that alone is enough to give them eternal life, which [sonship claims] not even God can revoke.

@sonship said
@Liljo


Shalom in the Lord Jesus. Shalom.

You mentioned lake of fire as unique to the book of Revelation.
[quote] Take note of what the Lake of Fire in Revelation symbolizes. . .

First appearance: Revelation 19:20
. . .
Second appearance:Revelation 20:10
. . .
Third appearance: Revelation 20:14-15 (shows the Lake of Fire symbolizes ...[text shortened]... hink anything in this vision concerns the same "lake of fire" spoken of in Revelation?

OH how I LOVE the Book of Daniel! And chapter 7 is one of my VERY favorite chapters! I'm at the conclusion of a workday, but will come back to this in the near future, Sonship!

@Liljo

Genesis begins the progressive revelation of God's Word. When God created Adam, it wasn't God's intention that Adam EVER die. He intended to create a being (human) that had the capability to CHOOSE TO LOVE ITS CREATOR FOREVER.

But, through sin came death. God's love for His human creation is so overwhelmingly powerful that He Himself made provision whereby humans can STILL choose to LOVE THE CREATOR FOREVER.

I think we agree on the progressive nature of God's revelation.

It seems that the more drastic, more serious aspect of God's judgment on sin waits until a latter time. I think it is more related to the incarnation of God as the Lamb of God, the Savior becoming sin for us and He being made our righteousness.

My present view is that eternal punishment as a conscious matter is reserved to be more explicitly unveiled until the incarnation of Christ is related.

I see something of greater responsibility being involved because of God becoming a man to save us.
Could you comment on that?

@rajk999 said
You sound like me. I have quoted John 14:21 for sonship dozens of times and he refuses to accept that Jesus said that love can only be demonstrated by the keeping of the commandments. Sonship has a fixation with mouth worship and has started dozens of threads advising people to profess love with their mouth and that alone is enough to give them eternal life, which [sonship claims] not even God can revoke.

Don't give up, Raj. Patience and endurance, my friend.
Many people, millions upon millions have been duped with a false gospel never taught by Yeshua or the apostles.

Many think "getting saved" is their "ticket to escape the flames of hellfire." In fact, that was their primary objective in seeking God to begin with. It reveals that what they really love is themselves (I'm not talking about Sonship here, just professing Christians in general). Salvation is all about what THEY get: Freedom from punishment; riches in heaven, etc. They fail to grasp that they are "saved" for God's purposes. The natural reaction of any human being to such a salvation, if truly procured, is to absolutely adore the One Who provided it. That adoration manifests itself in an ardent desire to serve Him, which can only be done in accordance to His commandments.

@Suzianne

Thankyou.

You are not alone in that interpretation.

@Liljo

Rajk999 does not accurately reflect my beliefs.
You should know that.
His reactions to me are mostly emotional.
I don't count them as sober minded responses or representative of what I try to explain.

If I explain something of my position ten times, he only sees what he wants to see and hear what he wants to hear.

I have no problem with the entire chapter of John 14, verse 21 or any other verse in it.

@sonship said
@Liljo

Rajk999 does not accurately reflect my beliefs.
You should know that.
His reactions to me are mostly emotional.
I don't count them as sober minded responses or representative of what I try to explain.

If I explain something of my position ten times, he only sees what he wants to see and hear what he wants to hear.

I have no problem with the entire chapter of John 14, verse 21 or any other verse in it.

All Liljo has to do is to go back a few pages and see what you post and he can decide for himself. You have never once in the last 14 years of posting here, advised people to keep the commandments. Liljo has started posting 2 hours ago and already did it, more than once.

Liljo truly and accurately preaches the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. You do not.