19 Jun 21
1 edit
@sonship saidThe Bible says resurrection of DAMNATION, NOT resurrection of judgment
Basically what I have tried to do in order to understand what Jesus meant by shall not perish in John 3:16 is to show that to not come under the judgment following the resurrection is to not perish.
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:27-29 KJV)
What false bible are you using?
19 Jun 21
@sonship
So if I'm right Son what you are driving at is that on one hand we have a group of people that perish, yet on the other at 5:29 we have possibly a contradiction as there are those that are sinners that have been resurrected to judgement? Have I got it?
19 Jun 21
2 edits
@sonship saidYou mean you will try to fool others with your twisting the words of Christ? I dont think they are stupid either. We have gone over this already and you cannot successfully twist the teachings of Christ.
@Rajk999
[quote] You use a version which supports your doctrine of OSAS, which states that the professed Christian cannot be damned but only has to face judgment, after which he is punished for a period and then given eternal life. The is clearly not the teachings of Christ.
Here in John, Jesus Christ states it categorically that ALL who have done evil will be resurrected ...[text shortened]... her few posters here.
I think either medullah or Kilijo will listen to me speak to this criticism.
Christ said 'DAMNATION', You say 'punished'
Are you seriously trying to justify changing the bible?
What kind of follower of Christ are you?
You use a special Witness Lee bible.
Promote a Witness Lee doctrine..
Nothing of Christ in your teachings.
19 Jun 21
I've quoted from two translations, one that renders the and of John 5:29 "Judgement", and the other "Damnation".
Personally I find these acceptably interchangeable , as an adverse Judgement leads to what some may call damnation.
I don't subscribe to the idea that you get judged and then carry on anyway. If you are adversely judged, then my understanding is that it's "curtains" or death/damnation however you want to phrase it.
19 Jun 21
@medullah saidThe word judgment [does not tell the whole story], gives sonship the leeway to change that damnation which is final as you say. Thats the difference. Sonship proposes that there is no damnation for professing Christians whether they live righteously or not. That is why he likes that translation.
I've quoted from two translations, one that renders the and of John 5:29 "Judgement", and the other "Damnation".
Personally I find these acceptably interchangeable , as an adverse Judgement leads to what some may call damnation.
I don't subscribe to the idea that you get judged and then carry on anyway. If you are adversely judged, then my understanding is that it's "curtains" or death/damnation however you want to phrase it.
Christ said it clearly several times.
Its dmanation, not just judgment for evil doers.
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19 Jun 21
@medullah saidRajk999 persists in a false accusation against Christians who believe in the assurance of salvation. He says to have assurance is to encourage disobedience to the commandments of Christ.
Is this the point of attention perhaps ?
29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
Is the question around how those that practiced vile things could have a resurrection to judgement?
I put that aside for the moment to consider this phrase:
" . . . those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (Recovery Version).
Could Jesus have meant that "those who have done good" mean those who have not believed in Him yet did good deeds?
In the same chapter Jesus said to those who did not honor the Son did not honor the Father who sent the Son.
"In order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (v.23)
I think to "have done good" has to mean or at least certainly include those who have honored the Son. That is receiving the Son as He says He is. And believing in Him Who sent the Son. They hear and believe in the Son and thereby honor the Father. They regard the Son as God worthy of equal honor.
"For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son.
In order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life." (vs.22-24)
The "good" in this context I think is the good of honoring the Son as God, believing into Him, receiving Him, knowing He has the authority of God. It includes HEARING Christ's voice in listening to what He has said and says. As to eternal life they do not come into judgment.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life."
[P]racticed evil must start with the evil of not hearing the Son, not believing in the Son, not honoring the Son as one would honor God the Father.
19 Jun 21
@sonship saidSomething wrong somewhere.
@medullah
Son -
In the bible that you reference most. how is Psalm 83:18 rendered?
Gladly.
The Recovery Version has Psalm 83:18 as:
"They devise crafty counsel against Your people, And conspire against Your hidden ones."
The King James renders it
"that men may know that Thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth."
Psalm 83:18. American Standard Version ... That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.
Are you sure you haven't made a mistake?
19 Jun 21
1 edit
@medullah saidLOL .. the man cannot even quote a simple passage accurately.
Something wrong somewhere.
The King James renders it
"that men may know that Thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth."
Psalm 83:18. American Standard Version ... That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.
Are you sure you haven't made a mistake?
He quoted Psalm 83:3
19 Jun 21
@medullah saidI apologise, you didn’t use that phrase. However you did say that you “couldn’t fault that fault”.
I didn't use the term "perfect Logic", and you know it; why the deceit?
So ok my question still remains “how do you know you are saved?”
19 Jun 21
@medullah saidYou seem to want to be furtive, ok.
I don't and never have personally claimed to be saved.
Let me ask another question then.
“Do you consider yourself saved, not saved, not known whether you are saved or not?
Thanks in advance for your honesty.
19 Jun 21
1 edit
@sonship saidAll that twisting the words of Christ?
Rajk999 persists in a false accusation against Christians who believe in the assurance of salvation. He says to have assurance is to encourage disobedience to the commandments of Christ.
I put that aside for the moment to consider this phrase:
[b]" . . . those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection o ...[text shortened]... t hearing the Son, not believing in the Son, not honoring the Son as one would honor God the Father.