@kellyjay saidThanks for the slab of generic faith speak.
The same power that created the universe put in place our notions of fairness, justice, goodness, and so on; these are not terms a material world would ever come up with on its own. We know thirst because it is something we can satisfy here with a drink, we know hunger is something we can satisfy with food, and we understand justice when we see wrongs done and if there are t ...[text shortened]... paying the price for their crimes in this life, like drink and food, that answer is coming as well.
And now this: If supernatural punishment meted out by a creator entity to people after they die was a reality and the threat of it was intended as some kind of blend of coercion and deterrence [or warning], what would be the moral purpose of essentially keeping this reality hidden from those still alive ~ aside from unprovable assertions made by people reciting religious dogma?
@kellyjay saidBut "we" do not "know" there is supernatural justice. Even you don't "know" there is. A few posts ago you admitted it was merely something your faith tells you is true. Of course justice is real, as is crime and punishment, which we do both know exist. Putting "supernatural" in front of the word "justice" is necessary here because that is the topic of this thread. We are not talking about the justice systems in the UK or Indonesia or Australia.
Justice is real; you sticking supernatural on it doesn't change that.
06 Jan 22
@fmf saidDo you think your denying that judgment is anything less than an assertion?
Thanks for the slab of generic faith speak.
And now this: If supernatural punishment meted out by a creator entity to people after they die was a reality and the threat of it was intended as some kind of blend of coercion and deterrence [or warning], what would be the moral purpose of essentially keeping this reality hidden from those still alive ~ aside from unprovable assertions made by people reciting religious dogma?
@kellyjay saidIt is an assertion based on the demonstrable fact that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that “judgement” [I note that you attempt to soften the objective with this word and avoid “eternal torture”] exists.
Do you think your denying that judgment is anything less than an assertion?
The onus remains on you to prove that your assertion is true. You are making the proclamation, not FMF.
@divegeester saidKellyJay here is another of your unproven, unsubstantiated assertions.
@kellyjay
On what basis do you claim that people’s sins are eternal?
@kellyjay saidWe do not have to speculate about whether there are justice systems here on Earth and mechanisms of punishment attendant thereto.
Do you think your denying that judgment is anything less than an assertion?
But we can only speculate about supernatural entities or supernatural phenomena.
You can speculate all you want and mutter your dark morally incoherent threats of neverending torture as a vengeful punishment for lack of belief.
But please, be serious for a moment, your superstitious "warnings" are NOT - in any shape or form whatsoever -akin to a steel sign bolted to a post [that everyone can see] indicating that a bridge [that everyone knows is there] over a river [that everyone knows flows there] is down.
It's just a rhetorical gimmick from you, KellyJay.
It reminds me of Dasa discourse. Something along the lines of...
Dasa: What happens if a bee flies into the sun?
FMF: It gets destroyed.
Dasa: That's right. It's a brute fact.
FMF: Yes.
Dasa: Well, the existence of [my] God [figure] is a brute fact too.
FMF: Oh.
Dasa: All other religions, apart from the only true one, which is based on the trillions-of-years-old Vedas, are fake.
FMF: I see.
Dasa: You FMF... YOU will come back as a cockroach because of your evil atheist mischief.
FMF: Gosh.
Dasa: You have been warned.
@fmf saidExcellent summary.
We do not have to speculate about whether there are justice systems here on Earth and mechanisms of punishment attendant thereto.
But we can only speculate about supernatural entities or supernatural phenomena.
You can speculate all you want and mutter your dark morally incoherent threats of neverending torture for lack of belief.
But please, be serious for a moment, y ...[text shortened]... back as a cockroach because of your evil atheist mischief.
FMF: Gosh.
Dasa: You have been warned.
The dasa piece should be framed for Russ to hang it on the office wall at the RHP offices in Newbury.
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@suzianne saidI have no objections at all to crosses and have a few myself. But since Jesus Christ is no longer on the cross but was Resurrected and is seated at the Father’s right hand, I honestly don’t see the point in wearing crucifixes.
The crucifixes that people (presumably Christians) wear around their necks are a symbol representing the cross at Calvary, and what happened there that day.
Jesus may not still be 'on' the cross, but it is a powerful symbol of the sacrifice he made for us.
Disclaimer: I often wear a small gold crucifix. I have several, many of them given to me, and they have sentiment ...[text shortened]... the cross. What I meant was a simple plain cross, and that's what I thought you were talking about.
The New Covenant didn’t even begin until after Jesus was Resurrected.
06 Jan 22
@divegeester saidSomething that occurred is fixed in time, so unless you can show they fall off into nothingness they will always be there. We will all stand before God and all things even what happened in secret will be known.
@kellyjay
On what basis do you claim that people’s sins are eternal?
06 Jan 22
@fmf saidIf I wanted to know what you thought about something I would have to listen to you talk or read your writings. Somethings have to be revealed through revelation when we speak our minds or write out thoughts and it is exactly that way with God. Looking at His creation does not give us specific information on many things outside of the immensity of His power, wisdom, strength, and things along those lines. When Jesus says “I say to you,” or a prophet says “thus says the Lord” can we understand God’s thoughts as well as going to His Word.
You making assertions about how very, very, very true your beliefs about supernatural punishment are, while any reality that the supernatural punishment in question actually exists is being kept from non-believers, is what this thread is about. Do you really think your assertions about supernatural punishment in tandem with some religious literature you just so happen to subscribe to is evidence that what you believe is true? I don't think you do, to be frank.
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12 Jan 22
@josephw saidIn a similar vein, Evolution isn't a theory to be philosophically debated by theistic cavemen.
"Everlasting destruction" isn't a theory to be philosophically debated by the created.