If supernatural punishment meted out by a creator entity to people after they die was a reality...
and the threat of it was intended as some kind of blend of coercion and deterrence [or warning]...
what would be the moral purpose of essentially keeping this reality hidden from those still alive ~ aside from unprovable assertions made by people reciting religious dogma?
Where is the "divine" and moral logic in this arrangement?
05 Jan 22
@fmf saidExactly who is doing this "hiding" of this information?
If supernatural punishment meted out by a creator entity to people after they die was a reality...
and the threat of it was intended as some kind of blend of coercion and deterrence [or warning]...
what would be the moral purpose of essentially keeping this reality hidden from those still alive ~ aside from unprovable assertions made by people reciting religious dogma?
Where is the "divine" and moral logic in this arrangement?
Refusing to believe something you've been told doesn't mean it's being "hidden" from you.
@suzianne saidExactly who is doing this "hiding" of this information?
Exactly who is doing this "hiding" of this information?
It'd be the creator entity supposedly meting out the supernatural punishment. Nobody living has seen any proof that these threats are about something real.
Refusing to believe something you've been told doesn't mean it's being "hidden" from you.
Told by whom?
People can't be expected to simply "believe something" because of assertions citing religious dogma.
05 Jan 22
@divegeester saidWhat's also interesting about the idea that there is some imperative to "believe something" that one is "told" by religionists is that what I am being "told" about supernatural punishment by, say, sonship is totally different from what I am being "told" about supernatural punishment by, say, Suzianne.
Do you believe everything you have been told Suzianne?
05 Jan 22
1 edit
@fmf saidThe teaching of eternal suffering and all the convoluted incoherent ideological nonsense which goes along with it is, in my opinion, one of the biggest barriers to people opening up to the idea of the existence of a loving god.
If supernatural punishment meted out by a creator entity to people after they die was a reality...
and the threat of it was intended as some kind of blend of coercion and deterrence [or warning]...
what would be the moral purpose of essentially keeping this reality hidden from those still alive ~ aside from unprovable assertions made by people reciting religious dogma?
Where is the "divine" and moral logic in this arrangement?
If people are indeed going to go into this imaginary torture chamber of eternal flames, it is primarily because of propagation of the idea of an eternal torture chamber of eternal flames.
@divegeester saidThe moral incoherence, it must be said, is alienating [to put it mildly] and it taints all other messages and assertions that come in its wake.
The teaching of eternal suffering and all the convoluted incoherent ideological nonsense which goes along with it is, in my opinion, one of the biggest barriers to people opening up to the idea of the existence of a loving god.
If people are indeed going to go into this imaginary torture chamber of eternal flames, it is primarily because of propagation of the idea of an eternal torture chamber of eternal flames.
@fmf saidElsewhere I have asserted my opinion on an alternative, and I’ll repeat it here:
The moral incoherence, it must be said, is alienating [to put it mildly] and it taints all other messages and assertions that come in its wake.
- Prior to calvary there was a less than perfect destination for mankind “represented” by hell and lakes of fire
- at Calvary Jesus Is described as descending into the hellish place, overcoming it and picking up the keys - metaphorical images.
- therefore hell (such as whatever it was) is done away with.
- Christ died for ALL. ALL sins are paid for. Mankind is bought with a price and redeemed.
- salvation is worked out here on Earth, through faith.
- falling away, backsliding may have consequences but that consequence cannot be hell as it’s been done away with.
- THIS is the good news, it’s wonderful.
- people can experience this eternal salvation now today in this life through faith.
- to it is totally simple, morally coherent and importantly it is a transferable message to those seeking.
This is my belief, my interpretation of scripture, my opinion of how a loving creator has rescued his creation from the grip of extinction.
05 Jan 22
@fmf saidBut to your point, is it really being "hidden"?
Exactly who is doing this "hiding" of this information?
It'd be the creator entity supposedly meting out the supernatural punishment. Nobody living has seen any proof that these threats are about something real.
Refusing to believe something you've been told doesn't mean it's being "hidden" from you.
Told by whom?
People can't be expected to simply "believe something" because of assertions citing religious dogma.
05 Jan 22
@divegeester saidThat's not his point.
Do you believe everything you have been told Suzianne?
He's complaining that such info is being somehow "hidden" from him.
@suzianne saidYes.
But to your point, is it really being "hidden"?
There is no evidence that it is real.
Assertions by religious people are not evidence.
Their certainty and earnestness do not lend any weight to their assertions.
Whether the supernatural punishment [exacted on the dead] is real or not is, for all intents and purposes, kept secret from those still living.
@suzianne saidBeing "told" by someone to "believe something", the existence of which cannot be proven, does not alter the fact it is essentially being hidden from those who don't believe what that "someone" claimed was true.
He's complaining that such info is being somehow "hidden" from him.
05 Jan 22
@fmf saidYour premise is flawed.
If supernatural punishment meted out by a creator entity to people after they die was a reality...
and the threat of it was intended as some kind of blend of coercion and deterrence [or warning]...
what would be the moral purpose of essentially keeping this reality hidden from those still alive ~ aside from unprovable assertions made by people reciting religious dogma?
Where is the "divine" and moral logic in this arrangement?
"Everlasting destruction" isn't a theory to be philosophically debated by the created.
Eternal separation from the life of God is a clear and unequivocal doctrine taught by Jesus, and clearly elaborated and collaborated on by the entire bible.
The scriptures are the final authority and the sole source of knowledge concerning eternal damnation and punishment.
Provision has been made for all to escape death.
05 Jan 22
@josephw saidThank you for the five assertions you have made here. Rather than addressing my OP, though, you seem to have simply illustrated what I am talking about instead.
Your premise is flawed.
"Everlasting destruction" isn't a theory to be philosophically debated by the created.
Eternal separation from the life of God is a clear and unequivocal doctrine taught by Jesus, and clearly elaborated and collaborated on by the entire bible.
The scriptures are the final authority and the sole source of knowledge concerning eternal damnation and punishment.
Provision has been made for all to escape death.