@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Let's not participate in any mystification or supernaturalization of what a belief being "transformative" actually means, what "being changed" actually means, and what behaviour Y [a.k.a. good works] "being caused" by belief X [a.k.a. faith] actually means in we human beings.
Belief in X makes you believe you should do Y. If you don't do Y then your belief in X isn't very strong.
Belief in X does not automatically lead to doing Y. Doing Y is something that the believer in X must decide to do.
If one's belief in X is only demonstrated by the doing of Y, then both belief in X and the doing of Y are required.
No magic or supernatural or "automatic" change is involved. What is involved is a state of mind and a subsequent decision to act.
Belief in X and a decision to do Y are required for compliance [i.e. being saved].
One cannot claim that one needs only belief in X - and by implication, nothing else - to be compliant.
Compliance comes from [1] belief in X and [2] a conscious decision to do Y.
30 Jan 23
@fmf saidA genuine faith transforms a Christian, resulting in more godly behaviour.
One could say that the Bible teaches that Christians are "saved" only by "genuine faith".
So, what is "genuine faith"?
Well, it's a combination of both belief and action.
That's it.
@fmf saidIf you remove the contextual and religious understanding of 'transformative' and talk instead clinically of X and Y you will miss entirely the meaning of scripture when it comes to salvation.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Let's not participate in any mystification or supernaturalization of what a belief being "transformative" actually means, what "being changed" actually means, and what behaviour Y [a.k.a. good works] "being caused" by belief X [a.k.a. faith] actually means in we human beings.
Belief in X makes you believe you should do Y. If you don't do Y then your belief i ...[text shortened]... ] - to be compliant.
Compliance comes from [1] belief in X and [2] a conscious decision to do Y.
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.'
Edit: Example. A car passes it's MOT because it receives a new engine. This new engine empowers the car to make many journeys delivering food parcels to the poor. - The fact remains however that the car passed it's MOT due to its new engine, and not because of the positive journeys it made. (These journeys merely evidence that the car has a new engine).
30 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSo do we agree that the Bible teaches that Christians are "saved" only by genuine faith?
A genuine faith transforms a Christian, resulting in more godly behaviour.
That's it.
30 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI am fine with them using the word "transformative" as long as they realize that what that actually means is that certain beliefs lead to certain decisions about actions.
If you remove the contextual and religious understanding of 'transformative' and talk instead clinically of X and Y you will miss entirely the meaning of scripture when it comes to salvation.
30 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidAbsolutely. As I recently said, faith without works means no salvation, and works without faith means no salvation.
'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.'
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThis is a dud analogy. The Bible teaches that the MOT/new engine counts for nothing [faith is dead] if the car doesn't actually 'make journeys' [good works].
Example. A car passes it's MOT because it receives a new engine. This new engine empowers the car to make many journeys delivering food parcels to the poor. - The fact remains however that the car passed it's MOT due to its new engine, and not because of the positive journeys it made. (These journeys merely evidence that the car has a new engine).
30 Jan 23
@fmf saidA correctly installed engine will automatically lead to journeys. If no journeys occur, the engine was not installed correctly. (Was dead on installation).
This is a dud analogy. The Bible teaches that the MOT/new engine counts for nothing [faith is dead] if the car doesn't actually 'make journeys' [good works].
I understand you thinking it fairer that good works in themselves contribute in some way to salvation. I personally think it fairer still if works alone could result in salvation. (A non believer who nonetheless does good works). Unfortunately neither of these are scripturally supported, save for a couple of ambiguous passages (Romans 13 etc).
30 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidA correctly installed engine will only "lead to journeys" if the owner of the car decides to go on journeys. As I said, your analogy is clunky.
A correctly installed engine will automatically lead to journeys. If no journeys occur, the engine was not installed correctly. (Was dead on installation).
30 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI am not talking about what you or I happen to think is "fairer". If you think I am, then you have been mistaken. I am talking about what the Bible teaches which is that Christians are "saved" only by genuine faith; genuine faith is not a set of beliefs alone; genuine faith is a set of beliefs and good works; faith without works is "dead"; there must also be the decision to engage in good works rooted in that faith.
I understand you thinking it fairer that good works in themselves contribute in some way to salvation. I personally think it fairer still if works alone could result in salvation. (A non believer who nonetheless does good works). Unfortunately neither of these are scripturally supported, save for a couple of ambiguous passages (Romans 13 etc).
30 Jan 23
@fmf saidAgain, Ezekiel 36:26–27 covers this:
A correctly installed engine will only "lead to journeys" if the owner of the car decides to go on journeys. As I said, your analogy is clunky.
And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Yes, the receiver of the Spirit maintains the ability to choose, but does so having been transformed and is guided internally by the Spirit. (The engine is supercharged to make journeys).
30 Jan 23
@fmf saidAs Dive said on the previous page:
I am not talking about what you or I happen to think is "fairer". If you think I am, then you have been mistaken. I am talking about what the Bible teaches which is that Christians are "saved" only by genuine faith; genuine faith is not a set of beliefs alone; genuine faith is a set of beliefs and good works; faith without works is "dead"; there must also be the decision to engage in good works rooted in that faith.
'That might be appealing on one level, but that isn’t what the bible says.'
30 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIt has nothing to do with whether it's appealing or not.
As Dive said on the previous page:
'That might be appealing on one level, but that isn’t what the bible says.'
30 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidGenuine faith is a set of beliefs that is made genuine by decisions to engage in good works that are motivated by those beliefs [or "caused"]. It is not some sort of automatic process that abrogates free will. The teaching quite clearly is that faith without works does not lead to "salvation".
Again, Ezekiel 36:26–27 covers this:
And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Yes, the receiver of the Spirit maintains the ability to choose, but does so having been transformed and is guided internally by the Spirit. (The engine is supercharged to make journeys).
30 Jan 23
@fmf saidI think perhaps you didn't read my previous post fully. Here it is again:
It is not some sort of automatic process that abrogates free will. The teaching quite clearly is that faith without works does not lead to "salvation".
'Yes, the receiver of the Spirit maintains the ability to choose, but does so having been transformed and is guided internally by the Spirit.'
How does the above negate free will? (When the believer maintains the ability to choose). - Again, faith leads to good works, but it is faith alone that leads to salvation.