Assertions about The Unknowable God

@ghost-of-a-duke said
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29)

I think that someone who believes that their faith is irrevocable ~ and thinks that they are therefore going to be "saved" without doing good works ~ doesn't understand what the Bible teaches.

@fmf said
I think that someone who believes that their faith is irrevocable ~ and thinks that they are therefore going to be "saved" without doing good works ~ doesn't understand what the Bible teaches.

But Romans 11:29 states that the gifts (salvation) and calling of God are irrevocable.

Please offer an alternative meaning for that passage.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
But Romans 11:29 states that the gifts (salvation) and calling of God are irrevocable.

Please offer an alternative meaning for that passage.

Salvation depends on faith, and faith depends on good works, and good works embody obedience. I have no doubt that this ought to be interpreted as follows: the salvation is a free gift for those who accept it and if that faith renders itself as genuine through good works and obedience, then the gift of everlasting life is irrevocable. There is the "Calling of God", of course, but it assumes that those called [i.e. who believe God has "saved" them] do not have faith that is rendered "dead" by no good works.

My 25 years as an adult Christian were not spent surrounded by Once Saved Always Saved Christians like sonship.

@fmf said
My 25 years as an adult Christian were not spent surrounded by Once Saved Always Saved Christians like sonship.

"My 25 years as an adult Christian..." clearly got you nowhere.

@fmf said
Salvation depends on faith, and faith depends on good works, and good works embody obedience. I have no doubt that this ought to be interpreted as follows: the salvation is a free gift for those who accept it and if that faith renders itself as genuine through good works and obedience, then the gift of everlasting life is irrevocable. There is the "Calling of God", of course, but ...[text shortened]... [i.e. who believe God has "saved" them] do not have faith that is rendered "dead" by no good works.

Good works are a necessary consequence of faith, but as the Bible makes clear, 'by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.'

@ghost-of-a-duke said
"My 25 years as an adult Christian..." clearly got you nowhere.

One could come to that conclusion, for sure. But I have no regrets about it.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Good works are a necessary consequence of faith, but as the Bible makes clear, 'by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.'

In terms of interpretation, good works are necessary. I agree. Salvation is a gift. It is irrevocable for those whose faith is "living" and "genuine". Those whose faith is "dead" or becomes "dead" are not "saved". Faith without good works - and by extension obedience - is "dead".

@fmf said
One could come to that conclusion, for sure. But I have no regrets about it.

I was referring more to your understanding of scripture.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I was referring more to your understanding of scripture.

I think my understanding of scripture is fine. If you disagree with it, that's OK. Maybe, with these disagreements, we would feel the stakes were high if were both Christians.

@fmf said
In terms of interpretation, good works are necessary. I agree. Salvation is a gift. It is irrevocable for those faith us "living" and "genuine". Those whose faith is "dead" or becomes "dead" are not "saved". Faith without good works - and by extension obedience - is "dead".

A Christian is saved by grace, through faith. This faith is irrevocable and can not be lost. Good works are a consequence of this faith and evidence that the Christian has indeed been transformed by the Spirit.

A dead faith was never genuine, but merely lip service.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
A Christian is saved by grace, through faith. This faith is irrevocable and can not be lost. Good works are a consequence of this faith and evidence that the Christian has indeed been transformed by the Spirit.

I don't agree fully with this interpretation for the reasons I have given in some detail over the past several pages.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
A dead faith was never genuine, but merely lip service.

Good works do not take place without decisions to engage in them. Someone may believe in God and Jesus to the Nth degree, but if they argue that they will be "saved" by their faith even if they do not make the conscious decisions to engage in good works, then they have misunderstood the NT, I say.

@fmf said
I think my understanding of scripture is fine. If you disagree with it, that's OK. Maybe, with these disagreements, we would feel the stakes were high if were both Christians.

I like to win an academic argument.

@fmf said
I don't agree fully with this interpretation for the reasons I have given in some detail over the past several pages.

But the interpretation is fully supported by the scripture I have provided.