29 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think the points we are making are somewhat different.
My point, is that works (the tea) 'evidence' that the faith of an individual (the teapot) has been correctly fashioned.
Faith alone saves, but this life changing faith 'automatically' produces good works in an individual, so if such good works are not forthcoming or evident, then clearly the faith underpinning it is suspect.
Sonship is not the only person to fi ...[text shortened]... .
Faith alone saves. Good works evidence that this faith is genuine. (And hence are intertwined).
The notion that faith 'automatically' produces good works is just a bit of ideology that doesn't ring true.
@kellyjay saidI would say it is your beliefs that may, or may not, change you "from the inside out and that transition is manifest in how we walk in the world". There are, of course, people from all manner of religious traditions whose beliefs "change" them and affect how they "walk in the world".
God changes us from the inside out and that transition is manifest in how we walk in the world.
29 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIntertwined. You say potato, I say potato. The theology is that God requires both [1] faith and [2] works. If one believes there is no living faith without good works, then clearly those good works are necessary. If the faith is not "genuine" then one is not "saved". Faith is only "genuine" if there are good works. Ipso facto, those good works are necessary.
Faith alone saves. Good works evidence that this faith is genuine. (And hence are intertwined).
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@fmf saidNonetheless, it is scriptural.
I think the points we are making are somewhat different.
The notion that faith 'automatically' produces good works is just a bit of ideology that doesn't ring true.
You can even find a parallel in science with Newton, or Einstein's general theory of relativity where space is distorted and curved by a large mass (such as the sun) causing gravity (instantaneously or at the speed of light).
In the scriptural sense, faith is the Sun, distorting/changing space (the inner workings of the Christian), and good works the gravity it automatically produces.
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29 Jan 23
@fmf saidChristian X is saved by his faith, nothing else.
Intertwined. You say potato, I say potato. The theology is that God requires both [1] faith and [2] works. If one believes there is no living faith without good works, then clearly those good works are necessary. If the faith is not "genuine" then one is not "saved". Faith is only "genuine" if there are good works. Ipso facto, those good works are necessary.
There are limited ways to evidence this, but one is the way the Christian has been changed by their faith, as scripture clearly shows the inner workings of the Spirit transform the believer. This will (should) be evident in the way they live their life thereafter. (If they have been truly transformed by the Spirit).
Ezekiel 36:26–27 for example:
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
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“Faith without works is dead”
However this does not mean that a person without good works is not saved.
Edit: this is because salvation is free, a gift which is received through faith. However works are required as evidence as is the fruit of the spirit.
I think the nuance here is often misunderstood.
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29 Jan 23
2 edits
@divegeester saidEspecially by Sonship.
“Faith without works is dead”
However this does not mean that a person without good works is not saved.
Edit: this is because salvation is free, a gift which is received through faith. However works are required as evidence as is the fruit of the spirit.
I think the nuance here is often misunderstood.
Edit: To be saved by the Spirit means also to be transformed by the Spirit. Therefore, a person (Christian) without good works can't have been transformed, bringing into question the genuine nature of their faith, and therefore their salvation.
If a murderer said he had found God, but carried on killing people, clearly no genuine transformation had occurred in him and he'd have no claim to salvation despite his professed faith.
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@fmf saidFaith causes works.
Faith without works = no salvation
Works without faith = no salvation
Conclusion:both faith and works are needed
If there are no works, there has been no transformative faith.
Conclusion: Faith saves and leads to works. (It can not be said that works save and leads to faith).
29 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIn other words, faith without works means no salvation, and so both faith and works are needed.
Faith causes works.
If there are no works, there has been no transformative faith.
Conclusion: Faith saves and leads to works. (It can not be said that works save and leads to faith).
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHence, both are needed because they are "intertwined".
Faith alone saves. Good works evidence that this faith is genuine. (And hence are intertwined).
@divegeester saidIt has nothing to do with whether it's appealing or not.
That might be appealing on one level, but that isn’t what the bible says.
I think it is what the Bible teaches.
If good works just happen "automatically", then why does the Bible itemize what those good works are and frame them as what amount to Jesus's commandments?
Wouldn't they just occur "automatically" or even "supernaturally" as a result of "transformative faith"?
Isn't obedience required? Or can it be taken for granted? Don't people have to apply themselves?
'Faith without good works is dead' is surely one of the most pivotal assertions in the entire Bible.
Without it, Christianity is scarcely a code for living. Instead, it becomes an ideology for people trying to think their way to eternal life.
These believers then wrestle with each other over their ideological purity and doctrinal differences and wave away contemplation of the nuts and bolts of good works and walking the walk ~ which will all supposedly happen in some magical way.
Living up to Jesus's example is surely meant to be hard work and a relentless obligation.
If the crucial line in James isn't trying to head this all this angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin stuff off at the pass, then... oh dear.
When Rajk999 used to confront the doubleplusgoodthink and Victory Gin Christians about this, I always saw him as winning the argument. He used to run rings around posters like KellyJay.
It's no wonder sonship's cult despised the line from James, and published long tracts seeking to discredit him.
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@fmf saidAs quoted above:
It has nothing to do with whether it's appealing or not.
I think it is what the Bible teaches.
If good works just happen "automatically", then why does the Bible itemize what those good works are and frame them as what amount to Jesus's commandments?
Wouldn't they just occur "automatically" or even "supernaturally" as a result of "transformative faith"?
Isn't obedi ...[text shortened]... der sonship's cult despised the line from James, and published long tracts seeking to discredit him.
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." (My bolding).
Humans however are far from perfect, and even with the Spirit will still, from time to time, fall short. As you say, 'Living up to Jesus's example is hard work and a relentless obligation.'
30 Jan 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidOne could say that the Bible teaches that Christians are "saved" only by "genuine faith".
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
So, what is "genuine faith"?
Well, it's a combination of both belief and action.