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@suzianne saidEverybody keeps repeating that like a parrot and I'll bet most of you have never read it yourselves. I read enough to know Biden had classified documents before he was even president.
Did you read the indictment?
The whole reason NARA reported Trump to the DOJ is because Trump gave NARA the classified documents. He obviously was not trying to hide them from NARA or he would have removed the classified documents from those boxes before letting NARA have them.
If Trump refused to hand over documents he was not refusing them from NARA. He was not refusing them from the FBI. It would have had to be the DOJ which then got the FBI involved. So when no1 said Trump refused to hand over documents to the feds I think he is confused. He needs to get his facts straight.
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@metal-brain saidRead the indictment.
"The only real difference in the cases in that the Feds treated Trump incredibly leniently in essentially offering to give him a pass on criminal charges if he simply returned the documents, which he refused to voluntarily do."
What is your source of information?
Trump defied a Grand Jury subpoena forcing the DOJ to obtain a search warrant.
You are either being stubbornly ignorant or deliberately stating falsehoods to keep insisting Trump was cooperative. Over 140 classified documents were obtained by the legal non-voluntary means of subpoena and search warrant (and Trump deliberately withheld materials demanded in the subpoena).
@no1marauder saidJust as I suspected. That is the DOJ, not the FBI.
Read the indictment.
Trump defied a Grand Jury subpoena forcing the DOJ to obtain a search warrant.
You are either being stubbornly ignorant or deliberately stating falsehoods to keep insisting Trump was cooperative. Over 140 classified documents were obtained by the legal non-voluntary means of subpoena and search warrant (and Trump deliberately withheld materials demanded in the subpoena).
Now you finally get your story straight.
And just why did the DOJ get involved? Because Trump gave the classified documents to NARA. So he did not hide them from NARA. He was just being defiant to the DOJ after it was already known he had them.
@metal-brain saidI have the facts straight and you are either badly misinformed or dishonest.
Everybody keeps repeating that like a parrot and I'll bet most of you have never read it yourselves. I read enough to know Biden had classified documents before he was even president.
The whole reason NARA reported Trump to the DOJ is because Trump gave NARA the classified documents. He obviously was not trying to hide them from NARA or he would have removed the clas ...[text shortened]... fused to hand over documents to the feds I think he is confused. He needs to get his facts straight.
Trump only voluntarily handed over a few classified documents to NARA while conspiring to retain many more. He had Nauta move many boxes so even his lawyers couldn't check them for classified documents and then had a lawyer certify all such documents had been turned over in response to the subpoena when he knew this was false. Subsequently the FBI executing the search warrant in August 2022, months after the false certification, found 108 classified documents that Trump had illegally retained.
It's all in the indictment you refuse to read.
@no1marauder said"Trump defied a Grand Jury subpoena forcing the DOJ to obtain a search warrant."
Read the indictment.
Trump defied a Grand Jury subpoena forcing the DOJ to obtain a search warrant.
You are either being stubbornly ignorant or deliberately stating falsehoods to keep insisting Trump was cooperative. Over 140 classified documents were obtained by the legal non-voluntary means of subpoena and search warrant (and Trump deliberately withheld materials demanded in the subpoena).
You obviously have not read the indictment yourself. The DOJ did not obtain a search warrant. That was the FBI. The DOJ got the FBI involved because the DOJ claimed Trump was not being cooperative.
Get your story straight.
"Trump only voluntarily handed over a few classified documents to NARA while conspiring to retain many more"
In other words, he outed himself. He could have not voluntarily handed over any of them. Why did he voluntarily hand over any of them? Didn't he have time to hide them? Did he send those documents to NARA or did NARA come pick them up?
@metal-brain saidThe FBI is under the jurisdiction of the DOJ.
"Trump defied a Grand Jury subpoena forcing the DOJ to obtain a search warrant."
You obviously have not read the indictment yourself. The DOJ did not obtain a search warrant. That was the FBI. The DOJ got the FBI involved because the DOJ claimed Trump was not being cooperative.
Get your story straight.
"Trump only voluntarily handed over a few classified documen ...[text shortened]... Didn't he have time to hide them? Did he send those documents to NARA or did NARA come pick them up?
Trump is not charged with retaining the classified documents he did voluntarily turn over nor not even the majority of those obtained by Grand Jury subpoena and search warrant. But he violated 18 USC 793 the moment he took and retained any national defense materials after he was President. He was treated with extraordinary leniency in being given the opportunity to simply turn them over to NARA without being charged for his criminal conduct, but he persisted in the same even after the Grand Jury subpoena.
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@no1marauder said"Trump only voluntarily handed over a few classified documents to NARA while conspiring to retain many more"
The FBI is under the jurisdiction of the DOJ.
Trump is not charged with retaining the few classified documents he did voluntarily turn over nor not even the majority of those obtained by Grand Jury subpoena and search warrant. But he violated 18 USC 793 the moment he took and retained any national defense materials after he was President. He was treated with extraordi ...[text shortened]... g charged for his criminal conduct, but he persisted in the same even after the Grand Jury subpoena.
In other words, he outed himself. He could have not voluntarily handed over any of them. Why did he voluntarily hand over any of them? Didn't he have time to hide them? Did he send those documents to NARA or did NARA come pick them up?
Was it a surprise visit where he was unable to hide them all? That is the only reason I can think of that NARA could have gotten them if Trump was trying to withhold them from NARA.
Do you see the contradiction in Trump's motive here? You are saying he was deliberately hiding them, yet he voluntarily gave NARA what he was trying to hide from them.
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@no1marauder
"he violated 18 USC 793 the moment he took and retained any national defense materials after he was President"
That would have to mean Biden did the same thing when he was VP. Biden violated 18 USC 793 as well, right?
@metal-brain saidWhy don't you simply read the indictment if you are soooooooooooooooo curious about such minutiae?
"Trump only voluntarily handed over a few classified documents to NARA while conspiring to retain many more"
In other words, he outed himself. He could have not voluntarily handed over any of them. Why did he voluntarily hand over any of them? Didn't he have time to hide them? Did he send those documents to NARA or did NARA come pick them up?
Was it a surprise visit w ...[text shortened]... he was deliberately hiding them, yet he voluntarily gave NARA what he was trying to hide from them.
"⦁ Beginning in May 2021, the National Archives and Records Administration ("NARA" ), which was responsible for archiving presidential records, repeatedly demanded that TRUMP turn over presidential records that he had kept after his presidency. On multiple occasions, beginning in June, NARA warned TRUMP through his representatives that if he did not comply, it would refer the matter of the missing records to the Department of Justice."
So he "outed himself" only because he apparently thought just giving up some of the illegally retained materials would get NARA off his back.
"⦁ On January 17, 2022, Trump Employee 2 and NAUTA gathered 15 boxes from TRUMP's residence, loaded the boxes in NAUTA's car, and took them to a commercial truck for delivery to NARA."
This answers your irrelevant question. Trump isn't charged with retention of any of those documents, so it is of no legal import.
@no1marauder said"So he "outed himself" only because he apparently thought just giving up some of the illegally retained materials would get NARA off his back."
Why don't you simply read the indictment if you are soooooooooooooooo curious about such minutiae?
"⦁ Beginning in May 2021, the National Archives and Records Administration ("NARA" ), which was responsible for archiving presidential records, repeatedly demanded that TRUMP turn over presidential records that he had kept after his presidency. On multiple occasions, begi ...[text shortened]... question. Trump isn't charged with retention of any of those documents, so it is of no legal import.
No, that is not apparent. You are assuming again.
"Beginning in May 2021, the National Archives and Records Administration ("NARA" ), which was responsible for archiving presidential records, repeatedly demanded that TRUMP turn over presidential records that he had kept after his presidency. On multiple occasions, beginning in June, [b]NARA warned TRUMP through his representatives that if he did not comply, it would refer the matter of the missing records to the Department of Justice."
Is that from the indictment? I doubt it because it is not true. Where did you get that from? Wikipedia?
@no1marauder
"Why don't you simply read the indictment if you are soooooooooooooooo curious about such minutiae?"
Why don't you read it instead of copy and pasting misinformation from Wikipedia and/or other unreliable sources?
From the link below:
On February 8, the the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released a statement after reports began to circulate regarding the organization receiving 15 boxes of documents. The organization insists that it has been a part of a mutual ongoing effort to retrieve presidential documents, not a raid.
"Throughout the course of the last year, NARA obtained the cooperation of Trump representatives to locate Presidential records that had not been transferred to the National Archives at the end of the Trump administration," wrote the Archives in a statement."
https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324
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@metal-brain saidI got it right from the indictment that you won't read.
"So he "outed himself" only because he apparently thought just giving up some of the illegally retained materials would get NARA off his back."
No, that is not apparent. You are assuming again.
"Beginning in May 2021, the National Archives and Records Administration ("NARA" ), which was responsible for archiving presidential records, repeatedly demanded that TRUMP t ...[text shortened]... that from the indictment? I doubt it because it is not true. Where did you get that from? Wikipedia?
@no1marauder saidI don't believe you. Provide your source. Here is mine:
I got it right from the indictment that you won't read.
From the link below:
On February 8, the the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released a statement after reports began to circulate regarding the organization receiving 15 boxes of documents. The organization insists that it has been a part of a mutual ongoing effort to retrieve presidential documents, not a raid.
"Throughout the course of the last year, NARA obtained the cooperation of Trump representatives to locate Presidential records that had not been transferred to the National Archives at the end of the Trump administration," wrote the Archives in a statement."
https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324
What you described was NARA threatening Trump, not mutual cooperation.
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@metal-brain saidYour "whataboutism" fails. Here's the statute:
@no1marauder
"he violated 18 USC 793 the moment he took and retained any national defense materials after he was President"
That would have to mean Biden did the same thing when he was VP. Biden violated 18 USC 793 as well, right?
""(e)Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; "
"Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both."
There's zero evidence Biden "willfully retained" such documents.
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@metal-brain said"On February 9, 2022, NARA referred the discovery of classified documents in
I don't believe you. Provide your source. Here is mine:
From the link below:
On February 8, the the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released a statement after reports began to circulate regarding the organization receiving 15 boxes of documents. The organization insists that it has been a part of a mutual ongoing effort to retrieve presidential d ...[text shortened]... go-trump-documents-1677324
What you described was NARA threatening Trump, not mutual cooperation.
TRUMP's boxes to the Department of Justice for investigation."
Press release or not, they obviously were not satisfied with the level of Trump's "cooperation".