Originally posted by FMFWhat is your definition of "eternal torment", I can think of a couple of different things. For clarity's sake and to be sure we are speaking of the same thing, with regards to what the bible says... what do you mean?
It's a point blank question that you should answer too, I think. Do you believe that "unbelievers" will "face eternal torment"?
Originally posted by yoctobyte'Eternal torment' cannot mean a couple of different things. It must mean torment that lasts for all eternity. What else can it mean?
What is your definition of "eternal torment", I can think of a couple of different things. For clarity's sake and to be sure we are speaking of the same thing, with regards to what the bible says... what do you mean?
If you believe in that then I would be grateful if you can point me to the passage.
Originally posted by yoctobyteI am not a proponent of the notion of "eternal torment". You should direct your question to the Christians on this forum who are ~ such as Grampy Bobby or sonship. The OP is about the ideology that they promote to this community.
What is your definition of "eternal torment", I can think of a couple of different things. For clarity's sake and to be sure we are speaking of the same thing, with regards to what the bible says... what do you mean?
Originally posted by Rajk999(1) Burning?
'Eternal torment' cannot mean a couple of different things. It must mean torment that lasts for all eternity. What else can it mean?
If you believe in that then I would be grateful if you can point me to the passage.
(2) Separation?
To be separated from God for all eternity is a torment indeed!
2 Thessalonians 1:5-12
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+1%3A5-12&version=NASB
Originally posted by FMFI am sorry, I thought you asked the question...
I am not a proponent of the notion of "eternal torment". You should direct your question to the Christians on this forum who are ~ such as Grampy Bobby or sonship. The OP is about the ideology that they promote to this community.
"It's a point blank question that you should answer too, I think. Do you believe that "unbelievers" will "face eternal torment"?"
Do you not like my answer?
Originally posted by yoctobyteYou did not answer the question.
(1) Burning?
(2) Separation?
To be separated from God for all eternity is a torment indeed!
2 Thessalonians 1:5-12
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+1%3A5-12&version=NASB
Separation is probably a torment for you.
You cannot say that applies to everyone.
The passage you quoted does not say torment or imply torment.
Try again.
6 edits
Originally posted by FMF
Billions upon billions of innocent people, past, present, future, and ~ we are assured ~forever, being tortured by fire as a punishment, suffering in excruciating agony ~ all for a thought crime.
First I would like to know in your judging the lost whether you
regard them as innocent of any offense or guilty of an offense.
You seem to want it both ways.
Which is it ? They are "innocent" or they are "guilty" ?
Has the human imagination ever been to a darker place than this?
I believe the darkest occurrence of the evil imagination at work in man was on the day that a mob cried out "Crucify, Crucify Him!" to such a One as Jesus Christ.
Crying out in rage that this Person should be executed must have been the darkest moment in human imagination. That is the imagination of some kind of guilt belonging to Jesus of Nazareth.
Even the execution hardened Roman Governor Pilate confessed that he could find no fault in the man they cried out to be tortured. Pilate had had many people executed in cruel ways. For some reason he tried his best to avoid executing Jesus but rather sought to release Him (John 20:38-40)
The mob's insistence on the killing of the Son of God beyond all reasonableness, beyond all sense of justice, was probably the darkest occurrence of the human imagination in history - imagining that Jesus Christ the Son of God deserved to be killed.
Originally posted by sonship[b]Billions upon billions of innocent people, past, present, future, and ~ we are assured ~forever, being tortured by fire as a punishment, suffering in excruciating agony ~ all for a thought crime.
First I would like to know whether in your judging the lost whether you
regard them as innocent of any offense or guilty of ...[text shortened]... human imagination in history - imagining that Jesus Christ the Son of God deserved to be killed.[/b]If they knew that Jesus was the Christ and the Messiah and the Son of God they would not have done that. They were in fact carrying out the requirments of their own Law of Moses which God gave to them. Therefore they were acting in ignorance.
Here is the proof :
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do ..
They must have thought they were doing the right thing.
Maybe you think you will score points with Christ for claiming that that was in fact the darkest occurrence.
Either way you are mistaken.
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
If they knew that Jesus was the Christ and the Messiah and the Son of God they would not have done that. They were in fact carrying out the requirments of their own Law of Moses which God gave to them. Therefore they were acting in ignorance.
Here is the proof :
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do ..
It is true that on the cross Jesus cried to His Father - "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Exactly what Jesus meant by that is open to interpretation. I believe that what they did not know they were doing was trying to put God Himself to death. They did not realize that what they were doing, they were doing TO God Almighty Himself.
Things done in abject ignorance can still be done in the darkest evil of a misunderstanding imagination.
The Father heard and answered the prayer in His own righteous way, because those who forever afterward came to believe in the Son of God were forgiven as if they had never sinned.
In fact the Father used the Son's death as a means to apply redemption that all mankind could be forgiven of all sins by the substitutionary atonement of the dying Son of God.
They must have thought they were doing the right thing.
Thinking they were doing the right thing does not make the crime less dark. And all FMF asked for was a darker time of the human imagination , albeit a mistaken imagination.
Maybe you think you will score points with Christ for claiming that that was in fact the darkest occurrence.
Either way you are mistaken.
This history is accomplished and I don't think God needs me to "score points" concerning it.
I do notice that very often the people who have to biggest problem with eternal damnation are the people who do not believe that Jesus was God become a man.
The two thoughts seem to go hand in hand. They do not realize WHO it was who was hanging there for six hours on their guilty behalf.
Originally posted by Rajk999verse 12 does speaks of eternal destruction, I asked FMF what he meant by 'eternal torment', and I am still awaiting an answer, I was directed to ask other Christians what is meant by eternal torment to his own questions... bizarre.
You did not answer the question.
Separation is probably a torment for you.
You cannot say that applies to everyone.
The passage you quoted does not say torment or imply torment.
Try again.
You are right however, 'eternal separation' for me would be 'eternal torment', I have had first hand experience... for me it is very real.
Try again.
I did, I'm done... I'm really not into splitting hairs.
Torment, Destruction, Separation... they all suck if you find any one of these as your fate.
Originally posted by yoctobyteThey all suck but they are all very different things.
verse 12 does speaks of eternal destruction, I asked FMF what he meant by 'eternal torment', and I am still awaiting an answer, I was directed to ask other Christians what is meant by eternal torment to his own questions... bizarre.
You are right however, 'eternal separation' for me would be 'eternal torment', I have had first hand experience... for me ...[text shortened]...
Torment, Destruction, Separation... they all suck if you find any one of these as your fate.
The fact that you insist on ignoring the difference means that you have the party line to tow.
Originally posted by FMFConsider the possibility. Imagine that after you die you find yourself inextricably confronted with the truth you denied throughout your entire life, and that you no longer have any other options but to accept your due. The loss of life. Eternally.
The "loss of eternal life" is darker than being tortured and suffering in excruciating agony for eternity?
In my opinion, much worse than anything I can imagine. I think eternal separation from God is like a lake of fire. The absolute absence of love, or life. No difference.
Originally posted by Rajk999Dude, I said it before I will say it again. You do not know me, you don't know what I believe or how I believe it. Please do not lump me in with your view of doctrinal differences... I have no party line to tow.
They all suck but they are all very different things.
The fact that you insist on ignoring the difference means that you have the party line to tow.
I am ignoring nothing, I answered your question in so far as I have an answer, I have nothing more to ad. For me, what awaits non-believers at the end of this life is eternal separation from God, it is what I believe, it is torment. Ok?
Now would you answer my question that I asked?
What stream of Christianity are you a part of?
Originally posted by josephwBingo! I would also add shear loneliness with the reality you are forever in that state and the terror of it. Torment!
Consider the possibility. Imagine that after you die you find yourself inextricably confronted with the truth you denied throughout your entire life, and that you no longer have any other options but to accept your due. The loss of life. Eternally.
In my opinion, much worse than anything I can imagine. I think eternal separation from God is like a lake of fire. The absolute absence of love, or life. No difference.