The Lake Of Fire

Originally posted by divegeester
The concept is moral indictment of those who subscribe to it. I believe the dogma arose from within the Catholic Church and was propagated in the dark ages but I'm not sure. But wherever is comes from the fact that Christians here beleive it is astonishing.

Hell exists. We see it here on earth every day.

The only question becomes, can it be eternal?

Well if it exists in our world today, then why can't it be a possibility?

Originally posted by whodey
Hell exists. We see it here on earth every day.

But this is just word play on your part based on the fact that the word "hell" is used in more than one way in English. What about "The second for Arsenal was hell as they were reduced to 10 men and the only question was how many goal would they lose by"?

With mere facetious word play, you are not making a clear point about the theology of "eternal torment".

Are you suggesting that there is something here on earth, right now, affecting billions of people every day that you are comparing to "being tortured by fire as a punishment, suffering in excruciating agony for eternity"?

Originally posted by FMF

They did not believe he was the "Son of God". Do you think they believed that he was?

I believe that a contingent of the main instigators must have known much more than we realize.

Nicodemus said that they knew down at the Sanhedrin that Jesus was a teacher come from God.

" ... Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." (John 3:2b)

They knew that Jesus had raised Lazarus from the dead. And therefore they sought not only to kill Jesus but to make sure Lazarus was killed in addition.

"And the chief priests took counsel to kill Lazarus also, because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed into Jesus." (John 12:10,11)

According to the words in a parable of Jesus, some of them realized that Christ was the son and heir of the kingdom of God:

" ... Latter he sent to them his son, saying, They will respect my son. But the vinedressers, when they saw the son, said among themselves. This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and take possession of his inheritance. And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him." (Matthew 21:37-39)

Many other passages indicate to me that the main instigators of the mob acted evilly against what they realized.

In another parable Jesus taught that they would not have this man of God reign over them, period.

"But the citizens hated him and sent an envoy after him, saying, We do not want this man to reign over us." (Luke 19:14)

As Jesus hung upon the cross they demanded that He act in a manner in which THEY thought the Son of God should act.

" ... You who destroy the temple and build it up in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross!" (Matt. 27:40)

The chief instigators of the mob were consumed with jealous rage which totally clouded what they did know about this Man. Jesus says that they ended up hating Him and His Father without a cause.

"If I did not do among them the works which no one else has done, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated both Me and My Father. But it is so that the word written in their law may be fulfilled, 'They hated Me without a cause.' " (John 15:24,25)


I would hasten to add that many of these same people afterwards repented at the resurrection of Christ, believed into Him, and became the first Christians. So there was hope for them once Jesus had accomplished death and resurrection for man's salvation.

Originally posted by sonship
The mob's insistence on the killing of the Son of God beyond all reasonableness, beyond all sense of justice, was probably the darkest occurrence of the human imagination in history - imagining that Jesus Christ the Son of God deserved to be killed.

FMF: They did not believe he was the "Son of God". Do you think they believed that he was?

Originally posted by sonship
sonship I believe that a contingent of the main instigators must have known much more than we realize.

To me, your suggestion that the "mob" who called for Jesus' crucifixion "knew" that Jesus was the "Son of God" ~ and therefore their call for his execution was "the darkest occurrence of the human imagination in history" ~ seems absolutely ludicrous.

Originally posted by sonship
Many other passages indicate to me that the main instigators of the mob acted evilly against what they realized.

Can you quote any source to corroborate this aside from the Bible?

Originally posted by FMF
People who have a "problem" with the notion of "justice" involving 'being tortured by fire as a punishment, suffering in excruciating agony for all eternity' [for not believing in God] don't believe there is any truth in these imaginings.

They are more interested in perhaps confronting the mind map which can come up with such a grotesque concept, and one tha ...[text shortened]... an imagination and not a "divine" concept" or a concept of "reasonableness" or "justice" at all.

People who have a "problem" with the notion of "justice" involving 'being tortured by fire as a punishment, suffering in excruciating agony for all eternity' [for not believing in God] don't believe there is any truth in these imaginings.

I wish I had some more time this morning to discuss this. But I do not.

First do not think that I am a piece of wood with no feelings. I do not like the prospect of eternal damnation. And if there was ever a teaching which I sought to find reasons in the Bible to deny - this is probably it.

I have read the best and strongest arguments of the Universalism. I have studied the most astute expositions of those who teach Annihilation.

I don't think my interpretations of the Bible are infallible. But I regard the Bible as infallible.

It seems logical to me that there would be different degrees of punishment and suffering in damnation. It seems logical to me that the scrolls opened containing the works of the lost would require different degrees of punishment.

It seems right to me also that God would want men to avoid the place of eternal separation entirely and would discribe it therefore in its worst possible mode.

Ie. At Sing Sing Prison in New York there may be some places which are the worst and other places which are lesser. The astute parent would warn his children in the worst possible terms about going to Sing Sing Prison. The place should be avoided entirely.

I do not know this. But I suspect that eternal punishment is described in its terminal worst mode. This is that no one would hold out any expectation of finding a relatively less painful spot for themselves.

Entirely, Completely, Fully, Altogether, God wants us at any cost to avoid eternal separation from Himself.

Now I have to go.

Originally posted by sonship
First do not think that I am a piece of wood with no feelings. I do not like the prospect of eternal damnation. And if there was ever a teaching which I sought to find reasons in the Bible to deny - this is probably it.

I have never once suggested that you or other people ~ whose professed theology has arguably taken the human imagination to the darkest place it has ever been ~ have "no feelings".

Originally posted by FMF
I have never once suggested that you or other people ~ whose professed theology has arguably taken the human imagination to the darkest place it has ever been ~ have "no feelings".

I have never once suggested that you or other people ~ whose professed theology has arguably taken the human imagination to the darkest place it has ever been ~ have "no feelings".

Okay.

My expectation about the last judgment contains more than just the awful dread of the punishment of the lost. There are, based upon the Scriptures, other expectations I think are appropriate:

1.) Surprise - I would expect to undergo great surprise about details of the matter.

2.) Awesome Fairness - I expect that the omniscience of God concerning the most minute contributing circumstances about everyone will be astounding. We will see that we simply are unqualified to have the omniscient knowledge of everyone's life. God will prove to be incapable of being unjust and unfair.

3.) Indignant Rebellion to the Uttermost - I expect that many who are masked with outrage towards God will be finally exposed as to how completely they oppose Him. The hatred towards God will be exposed and unmasked. And the impossibility of willingness to be reconciled to God will become manifested.

I have passages to explain where I get these ideas. But I don't include them now.

Originally posted by sonship

I have never once suggested that you or other people ~ whose professed theology has arguably taken the human imagination to the darkest place it has ever been ~ have "no feelings".

Okay.

My expectation about the last judgment contains more than just the awful dread of the punishment of the lost. There are, based upon the Scriptur ...[text shortened]... ifested.

I have passages to explain where I get these ideas. But I don't include them now.

"Awesome Fairness"? The "Awesome Fairness" of "eternal torment"?

Which aspect displays "Awesome Fairness"?

Originally posted by FMF
"Awesome Fairness"? The "Awesome Fairness" of "eternal torment"?

Which aspect displays "Awesome Fairness"?

Which aspect displays "Awesome Fairness"?

The awesome fairness manifested in His other acts of judgment lead me to believe that such will be the case in eternal judgment as well.

The challenge to God's just judgment was indicated not in the middle of the 66 books of the Bible but in the very first book - Genesis.

Genesis 18 records the challenge Abraham leveled, systematically with God in God's dealing with Sodom and Gomorrah. We have there Abraham assuring himself and challenging God that the Judge of all the earth will do justly in not sweeping away the undeserving along with the deserving.

Another place where God's fairness is witnessed is in the book of Jonah. This book is dedicated solely to the subject of God's unwillingness to have to judge. And the last sentence of the book indicates His omniscience about every inhabitant of Nineveh as to their moral culpability.

"And I, should I not have pity on Nineveh, the great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot discern between their right hand and their left, ...?" (Jonah 4:11)

God knew down to the count the number of people who should be exempted from His impending judgment.

I have no reason to believe that from then to the last Judgment God's character has changed. You didn't know the count of people that God should show pity to. And neither did I. But God knew - " ... more than a hundred and twenty thousand people ...".

Where there was human ignorance there was the awesome fairness on God's part. I have no reason to believe He will change in the matter of the final judgment.

And that is all I can discuss this morning.

Originally posted by FMF
"Awesome Fairness"? The "Awesome Fairness" of "eternal torment"?

Which aspect displays "Awesome Fairness"?

Is your complaint you do not like the idea of eternal torment and nothing
that can be said about it will never be good enough?

Understandable if so, but it really doesn't matter what we think about it
if it is 'fair' or not, if real the reality alone should be more important. Not
so much that we like the idea.

What is at stake, what are the crimes, what are all the points that justify
such a place if they are beyond our ability to see, our discussions on the
topic are pretty meaningless until its reality is revealed, at which point
it would be to late to avoid such a place since most are going there, and
even though all can be saved from such a fate most will embrace it.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonship

Which aspect displays "Awesome Fairness"?

The awesome fairness manifested in His other acts of judgment lead me to believe that such will be the case in eternal judgment as well.

The challenge to God's just judgment was indicated not in the middle of the 66 books of the Bible but in the very first book - [b]Genesis.

Genesis ...[text shortened]... ll change in the matter of the final judgment.

And that is all I can discuss this morning.[/b]

You dont know the Bible. The Bible is loaded with examples of statements that appear contradictory and which if the full truth is not known, can lead someone to rightly conclude that God is not fair. It is far better to not say anything than try to defend anything about God. God can and will defend himself when he is good and ready and does not need you to put your foot in your mouth as you so often do.

Here is an example:

(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

And yet God allowed David to hang seven of Sauls sons for the sins of their father:

Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, whom the LORD did choose. And the king said, I will give them. But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan the son of Saul, because of the LORD'S oath that was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul. But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite: And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest. (2 Samuel 21:6-9 KJV)


You cannot therefore blame someone for thinking that God was unfair and that his words do not stand. He can and does change his mind.

My view of that is there is much more to that story .. better off shutting up and dont try to defend anything. We are not called upon to defend God.

You as usual think you gain brownie points with God for defending him.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Is your complaint you do not like the idea of eternal torment and nothing
that can be said about it will never be good enough?

Understandable if so, but it really doesn't matter what we think about it
if it is 'fair' or not, if real the reality alone should be more important. Not
so much that we like the idea.

What is at stake, what are the crimes, ...[text shortened]... are going there, and
even though all can be saved from such a fate most will embrace it.
Kelly

I think you are missing the whole idea of this thread.

The point FMF seems to be making is that since nobody has been able to come up with clear Bible support for the concept of eternal torment for all whose names are not in the book of life [exactly who are in this category is another unknown], it must have been some very dark minds that came up with and continue to preach such an idea.

No Christian has been able to show Bible support for this eternal torment doctrine. Much of the explanations rely on assumptions and joining bits and pieces together. Yet many Christians believe the doctrine as if it were clear in the Bible, rather than say "I dont know".

Originally posted by KellyJay
[eternal torment] ... it really doesn't matter what we think about it if it is 'fair' or not, if real the reality alone should be more important. Not so much that we like the idea.

This is an odd thing for a 'free moral agent' with 'free will' to say, I think. It doesn't matter whether something is "fair" or not? Really? But isn't what is "fair" and "not fair" absolutely crucial to the validity of what is claimed to be "Justice"? Sometimes you sound like a shrugging citizen of a totalitarian state rather than a devotee and advocate of a system of defendable morals.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Yes, God made us eternal beings. We will either be with Him in the end or not.
Many who think they will be with Him will not, and many who don't know Him and don't think they deserve to be with Him will.

Pudgenik, where do these verses if into your doctrine:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death .. not torment.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Fear God because he will to destroy [not torment] in hell