Prayer & being between a rock and a hard place

@fmf said
Yes, that's me talking to my debate and discussion counterparts on a Spirituality Forum 18 months after the event. It's not what I was thinking in that hospital room.

My relationship with each member of this community [with whom I debate and discuss beliefs] revolves around the beliefs each has espoused to me and the beliefs I have espoused to each of them.

I have been a ...[text shortened]... my theism had returned, here in public, in conversation with people that had known me as an atheist.

18 months after the event? Well that lessens (in my view) the objectionable nature of what you’ve written in here but doesn’t (imo) eliminate it.

Is that the first time in this thread you wrote that the event was 18 months ago?

Is your wife Ok now?

Rather than release important information in a story piecemeal, I think it’d be better to release it all in the OP (or very shortly thereafter) so people don’t fill in the gaps on their own and make a wrong assumption.

@avalanchethecat said
Disagree?! Sincerely, I hope you speak from inexperience rather than a lack of capacity, because that would be tragic.

As I said,

“If I’m watching a close loved one die, and I have, I don’t make the experience about myself. And I certainly don’t post about it on a website.”

If you think that statement is “tragic,” I think you’re either trolling, smarting from losing another argument to me and looking to redeem yourself, or you’re just a very odd duck indeed.

Either way, I suggest you find another thread to apply balm to your wounded ego.

@fmf said
I think sitting alone and sleepless in the dark, in a hospital room ~ drips hooked up, machines beeping, realizing that my wife was on the brink of death ~ was an example of a foxhole: a dire predicament in which an atheist might turn to God.

Sorry, you have gone through that, and even more sorry, someone would give you a thumbs down sharing something like that as well. It is incredible how we don't treat our shared experiences with more grace than we could act that way.

@pb1022 said
That has nothing to do with your OP or my response to it.

You compared yourself watching a close relative die to an atheist in a foxhole.

I think it’s an obvious false comparison.

That has to be the stupidest, dumbest, most idiotic thing I have ever seen said. You ever sat at the bedside of someone you love and watched them die? Have you ever been in bed while others watch you knowing you could die? Trust me, I have done both, for it was far worse watching my daughter die than me going through what I did. Where the hell is your compassion?

@kellyjay said
That has to be the stupidest, dumbest, most idiotic thing I have ever seen said. You ever sat at the bedside of someone you love and watched them die? Have you ever been in bed while others watch you knowing you could die? Trust me, I have done both, for it was far worse watching my daughter die than me going through what I did. Where the hell is your compassion?

Hey Kelly Jay,

I’m talking about the thoughts, emotions, feelings, anxiety and fear of someone about to die being compared to someone watching them die.

People about to die know they are about to confront an afterlife they’re uncertain about (at least to 100 percent) while the person watching them die is not.

The two (an atheist in a foxhole and a person watching a loved one die) are going through different experiences - certainly different in intensity. To compare the two, imo, is a false comparison.

That’s my opinion and you can take your moral sanctimony and shove it in a shoebox.

Nobody is talking about whether they would trade places with a loved one about to die or the degree of their grief.

@pb1022 said
18 months after the event? Well that lessens (in my view) the objectionable nature of what you’ve written in here but doesn’t (imo) eliminate it.

Perhaps you could mind your own damn business, pray upon it, and the light of Christ and the breeze of the Holy Spirit would cleanse your heart and mind through and through.

@pb1022 said
Hey Kelly Jay,

I’m talking about the thoughts, emotions, feelings, anxiety and fear of someone about to die being compared to someone watching them die.

People about to die know they are about to confront an afterlife they’re uncertain about (at least to 100 percent) while the person watching them die is not.

The two (an atheist in a foxhole and a person watching a lo ...[text shortened]... ng about whether they would trade places with a loved one about to die or the degree of their grief.

I don't care, someone shares they watched as a loved one dies, and you want to turn that into a Bible study?

@kevin-eleven said
Perhaps you could mind your own damn business, pray upon it, and the light of Christ and the breeze of the Holy Spirit would cleanse your heart and mind through and through.

Mind my own damn business when someone writes a post in a public forum and solicits (certainly by inference) opinions on it?

No, I don’t think so.

And FMF never said he only wished for opinions from certain people and not others.

I’ve been in his position before and would never make that experience about myself or publicize it on a website, but, as I said earlier, to each his own.

@pb1022 said
As I said,

“If I’m watching a close loved one die, and I have, I don’t make the experience about myself. And I certainly don’t post about it on a website.”

If you think that statement is “tragic,” I think you’re either trolling, smarting from losing another argument to me and looking to redeem yourself, or you’re just a very odd duck indeed.

Either way, I suggest you find another thread to apply balm to your wounded ego.

How sad that you would attempt such a shabby deflection.

Let me just remind you of how this exchange went:

You commented "Obviously, but not to the intensity of the person dying. And the anxiety and fear level would be vastly higher for the person about to die."

I reponded "Again, if you had children or a loving partner of long-standing, you wouldn't make these silly statements."

You then said you "Disagree"

I was astonished at your response, and said that I hoped, and I do, very much hope, that you spoke from inexperience rather than from a lack of capacity, because that would be tragic.

Do you still contend that the imminent death of yourself would generate a "vastly higher level of fear and anxiety" than, say, the imminent death of your child, or your loving partner of decades?

@kellyjay said
I don't care, someone shares they watched as a loved one dies, and you want to turn that into a Bible study?

First of all, unless I missed it, FMF never said his wife died. I asked him if she was Ok now and he hasn’t yet responded.

What I’ve written is solely on the comparison (in my view false) of the experiences of someone about to die and someone watching a loved one die.

If you think those experiences are the same, fine. I don’t.

@avalanchethecat said
How sad that you would attempt such a shabby deflection.

Let me just remind you of how this exchange went:

You commented "Obviously, but not to the intensity of the person dying. And the anxiety and fear level would be vastly higher for the person about to die."

I reponded "Again, if you had children or a loving partner of long-standing, you wouldn't make the ...[text shortened]... of fear and anxiety" than, say, the imminent death of your child, or your loving partner of decades?

Have you been in a position where you’re about to die?

As an atheist who doesn’t believe in an afterlife, maybe your fear and anxiety would be zero because you think you will just cease to exist.

But to an agnostic or even believer, I think the fear and anxiety would be vastly different than the person watching a loved one about to die - the only way I think they wouldn’t is if the loved one about to die is an atheist and the person watching them die is a believer, though, in the case of marriage, I think (not certain) that the believer justifies the unbeliever.

@pb1022 said
Have you been in a position where you’re about to die?

As an atheist who doesn’t believe in an afterlife, maybe your fear and anxiety would be zero because you think you will just cease to exist.

But to an agnostic or even believer, I think the fear and anxiety would be vastly different than the person watching a loved one about to die - the only way I think they wouldn’ ...[text shortened]... , though, in the case of marriage, I think (not certain) that the believer justifies the unbeliever.

That's a very personal question which I decline to answer.

If you think your anxiety and fear at the imminent death of yourself would exceed your anxiety and fear at the imminent death of your own child or a loving partner with whom you have shared the greater part of your life, regardless of your religious persuasion, then I doubt very much that you have actually experienced the imminent death of such a loved-one, or you are deficient in some way of some essential human trait and my heart goes out to you.

@pb1022 said
First of all, unless I missed it, FMF never said his wife died. I asked him if she was Ok now and he hasn’t yet responded.

What I’ve written is solely on the comparison (in my view false) of the experiences of someone about to die and someone watching a loved one die.

If you think those experiences are the same, fine. I don’t.

If she did or didn't, it is an experience we can face, and you it seems you want to bludgeon him with it, please stop and think about that. FMF and I go way back, I've insulted him badly, and he has done the same to me, it happens, but if we don't stop step back and look at what we are doing, look at what we are saying, we can be blind to common things we all face. It should never be something where we take an opportunity when someone we disagree with gets hurt, and we rejoice at that in any fashion whatsoever or use it to get over. If we cannot love the unloveable, forgive the unforgivable because that was done to us; what are we showing the world about the Jesus that did die for us when we were unloveable, and we did unforgivable things.

@avalanchethecat said
That's a very personal question which I decline to answer.

If you think your anxiety and fear at the imminent death of yourself would exceed your anxiety and fear at the imminent death of your own child or a loving partner with whom you have shared the greater part of your life, regardless of your religious persuasion, then I doubt very much that you have actually ...[text shortened]... ed-one, or you are deficient in some way of some essential human trait and my heart goes out to you.

I think a person who is about to die realizes they are about to confront and personally experience an afterlife they’re uncertain about and I think that causes a great deal of anxiety and fear.

I think a person watching a loved one die realizes there is nothing they can do to protect or change or in any way mitigate the afterlife (if any) their loved one is about to experience and therefore the fear and anxiety of the person watching their loved one die is greatly reduced. This is especially true (imo) for a Christian who is watching a Christian loved one die.

The Christian watching his or her Christian loved one die trusts God and trusts that their Christian loved one will be in Heaven with Him. That provides a great deal of comfort to the surviving Christian.

But for a Christian about to die, no matter how strong their faith, I think realizing they are about to die and personally experience an afterlife creates some anxiety and maybe even fear.