Originally posted by galveston75Well, 'renege' can be a loaded term depending on what you mean.
And the bottom line is, you are correct. The law was the law. God gave the laws and gave very clear warning to all what would happen if they broke it.
So the issue that you brought up was, why so harsh?
Why did God have to have the man killed even if it were a mistake by that man?
First is how do you feel about a government that renegs on it's laws ...[text shortened]... laws to begin with when it was obvious not all could ever live up to them and most would fail?
It is an established principle of most civilisied societies that the prosecuting authorities are under no obligation to prosecute all transgressions of the law to their fullest extent. in the UK, any prosecution must both have a reasonable chance of success and be 'in the public interest'.
This does not mean that this discretion is exercised in some arbitrary way, so that some people get off scott free and others go to jail. That, indeed, would be unfair and undermine the justice system. But laws can only set out basic principles in black and white, whereas the real world contains infinite shades of grey. If you break the speed limit, but do this because you have an injured person in the car you want to get to hospital quickly, then even if your judgement was wrong to do so, you may not be prosecuted.
We also have the concept of mens rea, basically the idea of criminal intent, which is an essential element which needs to be shown if you want to prosecute someone for a crime.
Failure to observe these elements makes a justice system which, rather then being fairer, will fail to command the support of the people as it does not accord with basic principles of fairness. If people do not have confidence in a justice system, then the chances of it breaking down are that much greater.
I would argue that the reason that many OT principles of justice are no longer observed today is precisely because they fail to observe these principles. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that the man gathering firewood had any criminal intent (maybe his children were cold and he needed to build a fire for them). The Exodus passage does not provide for any exceptions to the rule.
This does not make for a fair justice system; exactly the opposite.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRank Outsider said: "I am aware that the Bible says that the period from 1914 will be a bad time" and I replied: "Where does the Bible say this please?"
Its truly a sad reflection of the state of affairs when one has to defend ones objectivity in the face of ignorance and prejudice.
Where is the "sadness, ignorance and prejudice" you speak of?
Originally posted by divegeesterIf Robbie meant that I have looked at the analysis he has provided and that I, objectively, have reached the conclusion that the Bible does indeed say that the period from 1914 onwards would be a bad time, then I am happy to set the record straight and say that this is not the case. I have no view on the matter one way or another.
Rank Outsider said: "I am aware that the Bible says that the period from 1914 will be a bad time" and I replied: "Where does the Bible say this please?"
Where is the "sadness, ignorance and prejudice" you speak of?
Divegeester and rajk999 were right to pick me up on this, as my posting did not accurately reflect what I think.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLook on the bright side. Bro Russell gave you an analogy to think about when you're unable to take responsibility for what you say and how you behave in a discussion in a public forum. No doubt Bro Russell gave you many hackneyed little soundbites to internalize and regurgitate when in peril. 😀
Its an analogy, to state that its meant to be taken literally is just crazy.
PS. Is the "caravan trundles by/dogs barking" one that you've used dozens and dozens of times, from Bro Russell too? 😉
Originally posted by Rank outsiderIt's not about you RO; robbie carrobie is just being a tool as usual.
If Robbie meant that I have looked at the analysis he has provided and that I, objectively, have reached the conclusion that the Bible does indeed say that the period from 1914 onwards would be a bad time, then I am happy to set the record straight and say that this is not the case. I have no view on the matter one way or another.
Divegeester and rajk999 were right to pick me up on this, as my posting did not accurately reflect what I think.
PS do post again though so he can reply to me when pretending to reply to you...🙄
Originally posted by Rank outsiderPlease do not lower yourself to the level of a tabloid journalist Rank Outsider by
OK - have done as requested.
Always glad to be of assistance. 🙂
acquiescing to their fiendish machinations, I wish these stalkers would simply leave me
alone, I have requested that they do so, but my words make no progress with them. I
really do have nothing I wish to say to them and I don't want anything from them either.
Originally posted by robbie carrobiei know exactly what is and what it's meant to convey by the phrasing. here's another one for you. it's pointless to squash every cockroach that crawls out of the sewer. another one will just take its place.
Its an analogy, to state that its meant to be taken literally is just crazy.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI am a lobbyist who works in the City of London.
Please do not lower yourself to the level of a tabloid journalist Rank Outsider by
acquiescing to their fiendish machinations, I wish these stalkers would simply leave me
alone, I have requested that they do so, but my words make no progress with them. I
really do have nothing I wish to say to them and I don't want anything from them either.
I am not sure tabloid journalist would not be a step up the ladder of social respectability....
🙂
Originally posted by Rank outsiderAgain though why did God put these laws on man knowing we could not live up to them? There had to be a reason and once we find that, we see why it was done.
Well, 'renege' can be a loaded term depending on what you mean.
It is an established principle of most civilisied societies that the prosecuting authorities are under no obligation to prosecute all transgressions of the law to their fullest extent. in the UK, any prosecution must both have a reasonable chance of success and be 'in the public intere ...[text shortened]... ceptions to the rule.
This does not make for a fair justice system; exactly the opposite.
A start is here at:
Galatians 3:19
Good News Translation (GNT)
19 What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is, and it was meant to last until the coming of Abraham's descendant, to whom the promise was made. The Law was handed down by angels, with a man acting as a go-between.
Jehovah’s Law to Israel
Abraham’s descendants through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob, or Israel, grew into the nation of Israel. Jehovah delivered the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. (Genesis 32:28; 46:1-3; 2 Samuel 7:23, 24) Soon thereafter, they promised to do whatever God asked of them. They said: “All that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do.” (Exodus 19:8) In keeping with the desire of the Israelites to be governed by him, Jehovah provided the nation with more than 600 laws, including the Ten Commandments. In time, these laws of God, given through Moses, came to be known simply as the Law.—Ezra 7:6; Luke 10:25-27; John 1:17.
One purpose of the Law was to safeguard the Israelites by providing wholesome regulations governing such matters as sexual morality, business transactions, and child care. (Exodus 20:14; Leviticus 18:6-18, 22-24; 19:35, 36; Deuteronomy 6:6-9) Rules were provided on how to treat fellow humans as well as one’s animals. (Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 22:4, 10) Requirements that pertained to annual festivals and meeting together for worship helped to safeguard the people spiritually.—Leviticus 23:1-43; Deuteronomy 31:10-13.
A major purpose of the Law was noted by the apostle Paul, who wrote: “It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed [Christ] should arrive to whom the promise had been made.” (Galatians 3:19) The Law reminded the Israelites that they were imperfect. Logically, then, they needed a perfect sacrifice that could completely remove their sins. (Hebrews 10:1-4) So the Law was intended to prepare the people to accept Jesus, who was the Messiah, or Christ. Paul wrote: “The Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith.”—Galatians 3:24. Watchtower 99' 9/15 Pages 8-9
Putting this simply God wanted to protect his nation with these laws against everything from santation to false worship of other Gods.
But these laws also showed that imperfect man could never live up to the perfection of those laws and that Adam & Eve had, even though they "decided" to sin, and how far renoved they actually were from God.
If we were perfect all those laws would have been easy to follow.
And as is explained above it showed the need for a ransome to make it so we didn't have to live up to those laws and possibly suffer death. Beacuse in reality we should all die when we sin against God. He has that right to ask for our life if we disobey him just as he did with Adam & Eve.
Jesus gave his life as that ransome for us and know he petitions his Father every time we sin.
What Jehovah Is Really Asking
Through the prophet Isaiah, Jehovah said: “I have had enough of whole burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed animals; and in the blood of young bulls and male lambs and he-goats I have taken no delight.” (Isaiah 1:10, 11) Why was God displeased with offerings that he himself had called for in the Law? (Leviticus 1:1–4:35) Because the people treated him disrespectfully. Therefore, they were admonished: “Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the badness of your dealings from in front of my eyes; cease to do bad. Learn to do good; search for justice; set right the oppressor; render judgment for the fatherless boy; plead the cause of the widow.” (Isaiah 1:16, 17) Does this not help us to appreciate what Jehovah wants from his servants?
Jesus showed what God really wants. He did so when he was asked the question, “Which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:36-40; Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:4-6) The prophet Moses made the same point when he asked: “What is Jehovah your God asking of you but to fear Jehovah your God, so as to walk in all his ways and to love him and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul; to keep the commandments of Jehovah and his statutes?”—Deuteronomy 10:12, 13; 15:7, 8.
Despite their wrongdoing, the Israelites wanted to appear holy. Though the Law required fasting only on the annual Atonement Day, they began to fast often. (Leviticus 16:30, 31) But Jehovah rebuked them, saying: “Is not this the fast that I choose? To loosen the fetters of wickedness, to release the bands of the yoke bar, and to send away the crushed ones free, and that you people should tear in two every yoke bar? Is it not the dividing of your bread out to the hungry one, and that you should bring the afflicted, homeless people into your house? That, in case you should see someone naked, you must cover him, and that you should not hide yourself from your own flesh?”—Isaiah 58:3-7.
Those self-righteous Israelites had a problem similar to that of the religious hypocrites to whom Jesus said: “You give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things.” (Matthew 23:23; Leviticus 27:30) Do not Jesus’ words help us to appreciate what Jehovah really wants from us?
To clarify what Jehovah does and does not require of us, God’s prophet Micah asked: “With what shall I confront Jehovah? With what shall I bow myself to God on high? Shall I confront him with whole burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, with tens of thousands of torrents of oil? Shall I give my firstborn son for my revolt, the fruitage of my belly for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?”—Micah 6:6-8.
So, then, what did Jehovah particularly require of those who lived under the Law? Of course, they were to love Jehovah God. Furthermore, the apostle Paul said: “The entire Law stands fulfilled in one saying, namely: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’” (Galatians 5:14) Similarly, Paul told Christians in Rome: “He that loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. . . . Love is the law’s fulfillment.”—Romans 13:8-10.
Watchtower 99' pages 19-21
Originally posted by Rank outsiderOk I'll give the benefit of the doubt 1914 mistake.......However then it was 1925 then it was ......whatever it was many times they claimed the end of the world was neigh. 1975 also. So one time sure pass after that it's false prophecy and that's the same as a lie.
i had understood that you had said that they made a prediction and it was untrue.
Do you believe they made this prediction, knowing it was untrue? If not, it was not a lie. Or did you mean they lied about something else.
I can't believe you really think that an untruth and a lie are the same thing. Honestly?
Manny
un·truth [uhn-trooth]
noun, plural un·truths  [-troothz, -trooths] Show IPA.
1.
the state or character of being untrue.
2.
want of veracity; divergence from truth.
3.
something untrue; a falsehood or lie.
4.
Archaic . unfaithfulness; disloyalty.
taken from : http://dictionary.reference.com/
Manny
PS: so yes I honestly believe an untruth is the same as a lie