05 Jul 12
Originally posted by FMFWell in fact they will never go away on their own or by anything man can do. The Bible clearly says that it is our "inclnation from birth to do bad" and the reason for that is we have all inherited sin from Adam.
I don't suppose they'll ever go away altogether. I don't even know to what degree they will continue to fluctuate. But this uncertainty does not require me to embrace your end times doomsday stuff or your vision of a supernatural neo-communist utopia.
If we did not inherit it from Adam perhaps you can explain why humans do as we do.
But the point is we can never, even after thousands of years or in evolutionist believes gazillions of years, have not gotten any better.
And in fact all it will take is some fool pushing the "button" or a group of idiots building a few bombs and it will all be over for mankind.
So man has gotten us no where on the big picture and in fact has got us all closer to death anywhere at anytime on this planet.
Sin and it's fruits, greed, hatred, lust among a few and the refusal to even believe in a God will always be here no matter what man you put your hope in... Even the best human leaders that have ever walked this planet could not stop these things.
05 Jul 12
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Originally posted by galveston75No it doesn't.
Why do you think God would be after you then to punish you? If you are doing the best you can, he knows that. But if one refuses to take the time to know who he really is and the good qualities he does have and the desire for all, even you to live, why is that something you don't want?
In reality Christendom has painted God as a cruel God many times an nd.
But he does have to be fair and firm to make that happen.
Does that seem unreasonable?
But here is a question I have refrained from asking for a while, as I read the Bible.
32 While the sons of Israel were continuing in the wilderness, they once found a man collecting pieces of wood on the sabbath day. 33 Then those who found him collecting pieces of wood brought him up to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. 34 So they committed him into custody, because it had not been distinctly stated what should be done to him.
35 In time Jehovah said to Moses: “Without fail the man should be put to death, the whole assembly pelting him with stones outside the camp.” 36 Accordingly the whole assembly brought him forth outside the camp and pelted him with stones so that he died, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses
Is this really the behaviour of the most caring and loving being there is? In any other context, would you endorse this behaviour? If the laws of the land did not make this illegal, would you like to see people who fail to observe the Sabbath stoned to death?
As a secular moralist, you will, I hope, at least appreciate why these passages are such a problem to me.
05 Jul 12
Originally posted by Rank outsiderYes indeed, it seems outwardly harsh, yet it sets a precedent, that is why the
No it doesn't.
But here is a question I have refrained from asking for a while, as I read the Bible.
[quote]32 While the sons of Israel were continuing in the wilderness, they once found a man collecting pieces of wood on the sabbath day. 33 Then those who found him collecting pieces of wood brought him up to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembl ...[text shortened]... ar moralist, you will, I hope, at least appreciate why these passages are such a problem to me.
punishment was so severe for what seems such a trivial crime.
05 Jul 12
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieAny punishment sets a precedent. I don't think the need to set a precedent has any bearing on the severity of the punishment. 20 lashes would set a pretty strong precedent.
Yes indeed, it seems outwardly harsh, yet it sets a precedent, that is why the
punishment was so severe for what seems such a trivial crime.
I think you may mean mean it sends a signal about the importance of observing the Sabbath.
But this man was not a murderer, not a rapist, not a child abuser etc. But the punishment exacted is the harshest available. Proportionality in punishment is generally regarded as an essential part of any fair judicial system.
The fundamental problem it leaves me with is that, if I were ever to believe and follow the teachings of the Bible, it would be out of blind terror, not love. Which I am pretty sure doesn't work.
05 Jul 12
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Originally posted by Rank outsiderI think you may mean mean it sends a signal about the importance of observing the
Any punishment sets a precedent. I don't think the need to set a precedent has any bearing on the severity of the punishment. 20 lashes would set a pretty strong precedent.
I think you may mean mean it sends a signal about the importance of observing the Sabbath.
But this man was not a murderer, not a rapist, not a child abuser etc. But the pu ...[text shortened]... of the Bible, it would be out of blind terror, not love. Which I am pretty sure doesn't work.
Sabbath.
yes this is what i meant, a precedent with regard to the Mosaic law, it was an act of
rebellion. Ill see what i can dig up in our literature, but you are correct, by today's
standards it seems excessively cruel and disproportionate 🙂
I just remembered reading about a young American who received 168 years for a first
offence! I dont think he killed anyone, but shot at a dog.
05 Jul 12
Originally posted by Rank outsiderKeep reading. You aint see nothing yet.
No it doesn't.
But here is a question I have refrained from asking for a while, as I read the Bible.
[quote]32 While the sons of Israel were continuing in the wilderness, they once found a man collecting pieces of wood on the sabbath day. 33 Then those who found him collecting pieces of wood brought him up to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembl ...[text shortened]... ar moralist, you will, I hope, at least appreciate why these passages are such a problem to me.
05 Jul 12
Originally posted by galveston75I have already said that I do NOT understand the prophesies made in the Bible therefore I would not falsely claim to be able to interpret it.
Ok..the floor is yours. With all your correct knowledge of the Bible, you explain what all the scriptures that pertain to the time of the end, the Gentile times, Jesus casting Satan out of heaven, the signs he spoke of etc, etc, means.
Tell us your interpretation of all this "if you can".
Paint us a picture so we can truly understand and no longer get it wrong. Again the floor is yours. Tell us how it is...................
On the contrary the WT organisation has claimed to understand it and have been repeatedly proven wrong. They have set dates and times which are not in the Bible and these are examples of their false prophesies. They have fooled millions of gullible JWs into taking action in response to these dates. They are therefore false prophets.
05 Jul 12
Originally posted by Rank outsiderYes: they know the truth about their organizations historical record. They and all of us do not live in a vacuum. G-man and R.C. can look at historical documents/literature from their organization (something I/anyone can't make up or lie about) and see for themselves what was written. An untruth=lie same thing. I might be able to allow for ignorance ( ignorance meaning one did not know or was ever presented with their own historical documents to look at) However if I were a JW and someone made accusations regarding what was said or written I would want to know more about these documents. So yes I believe in light of the facts they present half truths and even lies if not by will then by ignorance of their organizations history. (I don't buy the ignorance because they've been presented with their own documents)
Are you saying that they knew this was untrue when they said it (assuming they did)? If not, in what sense is it a lie, as opposed to an untruth?
Manny
05 Jul 12
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Originally posted by galveston75So who was walking and talking with Adam in the garden of Eden?
God will never return because he has never been on earth. It was his son that was here and his name was Jesus.
Until you and the others ever understand that simple fact nothing will ever make sense to you from the Bible...
Where WAS the Garden of Eden? On the earth!!!
Manny
05 Jul 12
Originally posted by Rajk999Well then. We are getting somewhere. IF you don't understand it, why do you think we don't? How can you prove that at least on some levels we don't understand?
I have already said that I do NOT understand the prophesies made in the Bible therefore I would not falsely claim to be able to interpret it.
On the contrary the WT organisation has claimed to understand it and have been repeatedly proven wrong. They have set dates and times which are not in the Bible and these are examples of their false prophesies. They ...[text shortened]... f gullible JWs into taking action in response to these dates. They are therefore false prophets.
And secondly why don't you understand it?
05 Jul 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI know what I believe.
I dont think anything you have ever posted has challenged any of our beliefs, you dont
even know what it is you profess as a Christian yourself. You seem to make the most
ludicrous assertions, for example, the Elders of Jehovahs witnesses are greedy and
corrupt, evidence, nil! in fact you seem to think that what passes for slander is
somehow akin to truth.
If the history of your organization does not bother you then so be it.
Manny
05 Jul 12
Originally posted by menace71And what makes you think we don't know about all those things? I do. Robbie does. My son and daughter do. My parents know and as far as I know most JW's should.
Yes: they know the truth about their organizations historical record. They and all of us do not live in a vacuum. G-man and R.C. can look at historical documents/literature from their organization (something I/anyone can't make up or lie about) and see for themselves what was written. An untruth=lie same thing. I might be able to allow for ignorance ( igno ...[text shortened]... (I don't buy the ignorance because they've been presented with their own documents)
Manny
So what's your point?
05 Jul 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell to make things fair why don't we go and take a look at what was written in the Watchtowers literature concerning 1914. Example when was 1914 first mentioned? What was understood by the early JW's concerning this? What was written coming up to 1914 and following 1914. If anyone wants to seek and know truth then it starts with looking at what was written. If nothing was written that contradicts something else then nothing to be ashamed of or discredit the watchtower. What I'm saying is I'm willing to look at the historical record with an open mind as to what was written.
hehe, ask on of them to challenge our understanding of the prophetic date 1914 and
how we have arrived at it from scripture and they are utterly bereft.
Manny