@divegeester saidI think his version of Jesus is even more sick. He believes that:
Sonship,
You believe and preach in here that;
- Jesus loves everyone
- But the same Jesus will supervise the burning alive for eternity of those who don’t reciprocate that love for him
- That this version (your version) of Jesus is glorified by this abominable deliberate torture
- there there are being on other worlds observing this torture and glorification ...[text shortened]... d from not reciprocating the love to your version of Jesus
And you wonder why you get push back.
- Jesus loves everyone who is a Christian and all others are unbelievers who will be tortured for eternity
- The same Jesus will supervise the burning alive for eternity of those who don’t profess faith [actually showing love for others is not required]
- That this version (your version) of Jesus is glorified by this abominable deliberate torture
- there there are being on other worlds observing this torture and glorification of your monster god
- and these beings will therefore be deterred from not reciprocating the love to your version of Jesus
@sonship saidYou are utterly deranged and you do not have a spiritual bone in your body. It is you and your bone shaking, dust blowing charade that is destined for the old curiosity shop of eternity.
If you have not understood it yet, by then all and any kind of Atheism will be dead, non-existent anywhere in the universe. So Atheism is bound for death and extinction.
If Atheism is not dead now, we can be assured that it will go out of existence in eternity future. So we all need to be reconciled to God now and as soon as we can.
Jesus Christ is the way we can ...[text shortened]... to God, redeemed forever, and even conformed into His image according to the eternal purpose of God.
Theism will probably arise every time a new sentient species evolves and starts asking questions ‘like who are we’, what’s that big shiny thing in the sky and what happens when I die. But then like our own species their accumulation of knowledge will take them beyond those basic questions and their own pantomime answers. That is not to say the mystery surrounding the true meaning of existence will not persist but that the kind of puerile answers angry people like yourself offer will be universally viewed with the contempt they deserve IMO
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@kevcvs57
But I am curious about one thing. The "anger" part. Tell me more about why you saw I am "angry". I asked you before about "The Angel of Death" the Nazi Dr. David Mengele.
He sowed up the breasts of Jewish women so that he could do scientific experiments and study on their babes as they starved to death. Are you saying that my asking if Dr. David Mengele will ever meet divine justice is my being "angry" ?
This is not just human anger. This is a strong expectation that there is not a disconnect between the authority of the physical universe and the ultimate moral authority of the universe.
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Kevcvs57,
I don't think the Bible is simply ancient superstitious explanations of what the sound of thunder is. That's Carl Sagan stuff.
Formerly I had a benign attitude that these two matters were unrelated to one another. I thought one was in the realm of science and the other was ethics, morality, etc. It was in college as a confused agnostic a Jewish classmate told me that the two matters were related.
Maybe you sensed anger in my saying unthankfulness for God's good creation and its benefits was wickedness ?
Sometimes your friend is the one who tells you the truth. The wrath of God, God's anger not human anger, will have a last judgment to balance the scales of justice. I just chose Dr. David Mengele as an extreme example. You and I are sinners also, maybe me more so than you. But we are all accountable to God the One who is angry yet willing to reconcile man to God eternally.
What I am going to attempt to get you to realize is that the divine anger of God fell upon Jesus the Son of God on His cross on Calvary that the whole guilty lot of us . . . us, every single one, could be redeemed, forgiven eternally if we allow God to enact this substitutionary redemption on our behalf.
He is trying to speak to us. He speaks to us in nature. And He speaks to us in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is natural revelation to be seen. And there is written revelation to not shut our hearts to but see.
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Theism will probably arise every time a new sentient species evolves and starts asking questions ‘like who are we’, what’s that big shiny thing in the sky and what happens when I die. But then like our own species their accumulation of knowledge will take them beyond those basic questions and their own pantomime answers. That is not to say the mystery surrounding the true meaning of existence will not persist but that the kind of puerile answers angry people like yourself offer will be universally viewed with the contempt they deserve IMO
Someone asked me how I could believe in intelligent design with a straight face. I provided a list of scientists and professionals who suspected design. They didn't all sound particularly angry to me. They just sounded realistic.
Anyway, there seems some anger in man being the only creature capable of inventing a mechanism to destroy all life on the planet. Do you sense a bit of "angry" purpose in an evolved creature smart enough to make a hydrogen bomb?
Do you detect some anger in a species smart enough to have enough weapons to contaminate the whole ecosystem to death seven times over? I mean talking about science and anger.
@sonship saidYour not just offering eternal death to Dr Mengele are you, your threatening the people he experimented on as well, if Dr Mengele turned to your one God before he died he could have been sitting in heaven watching his victims writhing in agony for ever.
@kevcvs57
But I am curious about one thing. The "anger" part. Tell me more about why you saw I am "angry". I asked you before about "The Angel of Death" the Nazi Dr. David Mengele.
He sowed up the breasts of Jewish women so that he could do scientific experiments and study on their babes as they starved to death. Are you saying that my asking if Dr. David ...[text shortened]... ect between the authority of the physical universe and the ultimate moral authority of the universe.
Your version of reality is sick and angry and I can only assume sickness and anger on the part of anyone who worships such a version.
@sonship saidOf course scientists are prone to anger as human beings along with the rest of us.
[quote] Theism will probably arise every time a new sentient species evolves and starts asking questions ‘like who are we’, what’s that big shiny thing in the sky and what happens when I die. But then like our own species their accumulation of knowledge will take them beyond those basic questions and their own pantomime answers. That is not to say the mystery surrounding the ...[text shortened]... contaminate the whole ecosystem to death seven times over? I mean talking about science and anger.
You on the other hand literally WORSHIP a jealous angry god and call it’s vengeance love.
It’s our curiosity coupled with a fear that gave us the H bomb I’d love to eradicate our fear and just retain our curiosity but unfortunately we evolved in a very dangerous environment and fear was and probably still is essential for our survival. The trick would be to control our irrational fears at least.
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Your not just offering eternal death to Dr Mengele are you, your threatening the people he experimented on as well, if Dr Mengele turned to your one God before he died he could have been sitting in heaven watching his victims writhing in agony for ever. Your version of reality is sick and angry and I can only assume sickness and anger on the part of anyone who worships such a version.
I see you adjusting the details out of your imagination to make God's righteousness "sick" in your eyes.
To convince me that "my version" of God is "sick" you have to convince me that Jesus Christ is "sick" because "my version" - so-called, came out of the mouth of this man.
Out of the mouth of Jesus came both the words of redemption, reconciliation, forgiveness, mercy and the most serious words of judgment and that vengeance belonged to God alone. Christ taught these two poles of final things. I acknowledge both and have spoken plenty of both here in many topics.
Your imaginative lopsided accusation plays on the Gospel being of only one side for its self serving caricature. I think you have a lot of work to do to argue that your morality surpasses that of Jesus or that compared to you God is "sick". Just arguing that it is my "version" is hard enough for you because the "version" of eternal redemption and eternal judgement is the Bible's.
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Your not just offering eternal death to Dr Mengele are you, your threatening the people he experimented on as well, if Dr Mengele turned to your one God before he died he could have been sitting in heaven watching his victims writhing in agony for ever. Your version of reality is sick and angry and I can only assume sickness and anger on the part of anyone who worships such a version.
What have you as a replacement ? I suppose in your view accountability to God is replaced by everyone simply peacefully melting into the dust. This is an absurd view an encourages us to be as evil as we want. For so much is unrecorded, unremembered, and non-consequential.
You may speak of some noble self judgment to replace God's calling to account. The problem with that is that we all tend to be very strick with the other person and rather easy and soft on ourselves. We are not equal. We commit un-equality - iniquity. We are exacting, precise, and strict towards others. But we are accomodating, excusing, rationalizing, and merciful on ourselves.
Then you may suggest some herd or group morality can replace God. You know yourself that much you did society didn't notice, didn't catch. You know nobody saw and you think the secret will die with you. But God for whom NOTHING escapes His knowledge you call "sick" ? The noble herd will with its limited knowledge and limited ability to discern and transform will replace a "sick" God revealed in the Bible?
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Your version of reality is sick and angry and I can only assume sickness and anger on the part of anyone who worships such a version.
There are two things in God's universe related to our forgiveness.
One we can get and one we cannot get.
1.) We can obtain forgiveness for every sin we ever committed, - gone, erased, forgotten, judged by God on the cross when Christ died in our place. This we can obtain. And you need this. And we need the Spirit of Jesus in His resurrected form indwelling our innermost being - Christ living in us after we are saved.
2.) The other thing which we cannot get is to remain the same kind of person forever as what we were when we committed sin. This we will never keep. For every forgiven person by God in history will be conformed to the image of Christ that in eternity he or she is like Jesus. This is according to His purpose that we be like Christ.
So any caricature of Dr. Joseph Mengele chuckling in heaven at the things he got away with is wrong. I also think I see in the Bible that some people go beyond the point of no repentance even before they die.
I don't think the cause being less than the effect makes sense.
The thought that the Creator has to sit at the feet of the creature to learn about
justice makes no sense. And how could God bestow upon you what He had not
within Himself to give, such that what God lacks His creatures will supply Him out
of our created superior treasures of wisdom. None of this makes sense to me.
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Kevcvs57,
Further you are ignoring history's most impactful moral personality for your caricature.
Was He called the Prince of Peace because He was sick?
He is "the Great Physician" because He is sick?
He is called "King of kings" because He is sick?
He is called The "Prince of Life" because His teaching was "sick"?
And if you argue that you don't know what Jesus did and said then you have to
explain how "sick" apostles of Jesus were able to imagine up a
fictional Person to perfect in wholesomeness, honesty, self-sacrifice,
absoluteness for moral purity, righteousness, and a glorious dignity.
And what did it do for then to invent Christ hoax except for securing their own life of
persecution and cruel execution for their gospel message ? I say they
knew their Redeemer lived and could only be finally vindicated.
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Your not just offering eternal death to Dr Mengele are you, your threatening the people he experimented on as well,
I am dealing with the truth presented that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
Between the choice of believing God is ignorant of all circumstances, situations, and a God who is infallible in wisdom, knowledge, and well able to call us to account according to the amount of truth we had, I choose to believe the latter.
The book of nature encourages me that God's knowledge and wisdom is well able. And the book of revelation has Him manifesting Himself in history as such. I suspect we all will be shocked at the level of His understanding in the last judgment. I do not expect that God will need to be reminded, taught, instructed by us on details He may have overlooked.
That thought is absurd to me.
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Sonship, You believe and preach in here that;
- Jesus loves everyone
- But the same Jesus will supervise the burning alive for eternity of those who don’t reciprocate that love for him
- That this version (your version) of Jesus is glorified by this abominable deliberate torture
- there there are being on other worlds observing this torture and glorification of your monster god
- and these beings will therefore be deterred from not reciprocating the love to your version of Jesus
And you wonder why you get push back.
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- But the same Jesus will supervise the burning alive for eternity of those who don’t reciprocate that love for him
To anyone and Divegeester,
Does John 3:16 have Jesus teaching " . . . that everyone who [LOVES] Him should not perish but have eternal life" ?
Or did He say there " . . . that everyone who BELIEVES in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." ?
How does it read in your Bible - " that everyone who loves" or "that everyone who believes" ?
My New Testament says the requirement to be saved from perishing is to "everyone who believes in Him" .