-Removed-I did not say that those that are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire remain alive for ever and ever. I believe that at least their resurrected body becomes dead and something about them (maybe their soul or spirit) is tormented with an everlasting punishment because they are described as without rest day or night forever.
-Removed-Agreed, but when we do it they die, it does not end them forever.
You are speaking about what God is going to do, the verses given to you
seem quite clear on the subject. You have been arguing against them
mainly out of how you view God, not out of what the words in scriptures
actually say.
Kelly
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-Removed-I'd also point you to another scripture that has Jesus talking about
two people who died, one he actually names. Because he names him this
leads me to believe it is a true story about these two men, others may
disagree. I'd point out to you a couple of things, first off these two guys
are dead, yet suffering is taking place, conversations are taking place,
and one is worried about his brothers who are still alive. They are both
dead one in Abraham’s bosom, and one in Hades, this is not the 2nd
death, the 2nd death still has not happen yet, and Hades and Abraham’s
bosom are places where the dead go, or at least they did till Jesus died.
Luke 16:
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Originally posted by KellyJayEven if you choose to take the story literally there is no indication that the rich man would experience eternal torment.
I'd also point you to another scripture that has Jesus talking about
two people who died, one he actually names. Because he names him this
leads me to believe it is a true story about these two men, others may
disagree. I'd point out to you a couple of things, first off these two guys
are dead, yet suffering is taking place, conversations are taking pla ...[text shortened]... not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999I've given other scriptures to speak to that, this one lets us know that
Even if you choose to take the story literally there is no indication that the rich man would experience eternal torment.
when we die, there is more going on than us just leaving this place. If as
you correctly said, if this story can be taken literally, which I believe it
should be for the reasons I've stated.
Kelly
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-Removed-What is this fascination with you about God "watching"?
Would it be better if God didn't "watch"? Because in a true separation from God, I would assume God would turn His back and have nothing further to do with them.
Don't get me wrong. For a long, LONG time, I was the only outspoken advocate of annihilationism in this forum and I went through many debates with the others all alone.
I just don't get your morbid fascination with God "watching".
Originally posted by KellyJayOk but this story since it is not the second death in the lake of fire it cannot be connected to what Christ is referring to. Quite likely it is the place Catholics call purgatory in which the rich man found himself. Purgatory is frowned upon by many but the concept is found in the Septuagint but not in the KJV.
I've given other scriptures to speak to that, this one lets us know that
when we die, there is more going on than us just leaving this place. If as
you correctly said, if this story can be taken literally, which I believe it
should be for the reasons I've stated.
Kelly
So if the rich man was in purgatory where he was tormented he would still face judgement when Christ returns. At that time his torment may end with him receiving eternal life [I dont know what Purgatory is about], or he may be terminated in the lake of fire.
The lake of fire burns for ever. Certain beings are tormented for ever but I have still to see a passage in the bible which supports the view that ordinary unworthy humans/people will be tormented for all eternity.
Originally posted by Rajk999I don't care what the Catholics believe about purgatory, I'm simply going
Ok but this story since it is not the second death in the lake of fire it cannot be connected to what Christ is referring to. Quite likely it is the place Catholics call purgatory in which the rich man found himself. Purgatory is frowned upon by many but the concept is found in the Septuagint but not in the KJV.
So if the rich man was in purgatory where ...[text shortened]... which supports the view that ordinary unworthy humans/people will be tormented for all eternity.
over what is in scripture. If I understand the concept of purgatory and
I have never studied or care to so I may be wrong, I thought it was
a place to suffer till you were ready for forgiveness. I don't buy into that
at all, if you die in your sins in this life, you are about to face judgment
there isn't a second chance earned through suffering in purgatory.
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999This is a repeat post, it does talk about eternal torment.
Even if you choose to take the story literally there is no indication that the rich man would experience eternal torment.
" I think Jesus is very clear on how long punishment is going to last.
Kelly
Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”"