02 Aug 14
Originally posted by RJHindsYou can rationalise you horrendous beliefs about the nature of god of course, but please make a better effort.
Just like with other mysteries of godliness and the kingdom of God and Heaven that are not explained so humans can understand without the experience, so is the mystery of death and eternal death. We can only speculate for we see only partly as looking through a darkened glass that is dimly lit as the apostle Paul stated.
We have a good idea of the death ...[text shortened]... is possible is a mystery and we are left to only speculate and to accept or reject it by faith.
Death is death - finished.
"Death" is not eternal existence in an incinerator.
There is no such phrase in the bible as "eternal death", you should stop putting things in r bible which are not there in an effort to support your belief.
02 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipI've stated many times in these debates about your horrendous belief about the nature of god, that I have no issue with there being a 2nd death or a lake of fire or any other real or symbolic things your are talking about.The problem and the reason why it makes no sense is that the bible terms it the second death and yet you still believe that despite a person being dead from this death, they will still be alive suffering for eternity. It's nonsense.
This is your refusal to accept the Bible's description of [b]the second death - "the lak ...[text shortened]... ept it.
I would write more for clarification, but you don't do well with my longer posts.
What I have an issue with is that death is not life for eternity in an incinerator while your version of god watches.
That the devil in there forever is of no concern to me.
02 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat I "think" or to put it into correct terms speculate about god wrath is irrelevant. What is elevate is that you extremist fundamentalists believe in a God who had created a place of eternal burning in and incinerator while he watches on.
Do you think God's grace and mercy are, to put it mildy beyond great?
If so, do you think God's wrath would be, to put it mildy beyond great?
Why would God's wrath be any less bad as how good His mercy is?
I don't see disappearing from reality as something to fear, many think
that is what is coming anyway, and they think who cares!
Kelly
The bible says of non believers (forget the devil and his angels) that there is a second death in a lake of fire. That's it.
Death is NOT life for eternity in an incinerator while god watches.
02 Aug 14
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterThat exact combination of words is not used. However, there is the concept of an eternal punishment by everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, which is called the Second Death.
You can rationalise you horrendous beliefs about the nature of god of course, but please make a better effort.
Death is death - finished.
"Death" is not eternal existence in an incinerator.
There is no such phrase in the bible as "eternal death", you should stop putting things in r bible which are not there in an effort to support your belief.
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Matthew 25:46 NASB)
02 Aug 14
Originally posted by divegeesterWell, I will say I hope you are right, but do not think you are.
What I "think" or to put it into correct terms speculate about god wrath is irrelevant. What is elevate is that you extremist fundamentalists believe in a God who had created a place of eternal burning in and incinerator while he watches on.
The bible says of non believers (forget the devil and his angels) that there is a second death in a lake of fire. That's it.
Death is NOT life for eternity in an incinerator while god watches.
I think it is spelled out clearly what is going to happen to those and I do
not know about a single verse that says you burn till you burn up, or
however you wish to say it.
Kelly
02 Aug 14
Originally posted by divegeesterI think Jesus is very clear on how long punishment is going to last.
No there isn't.
Kelly
Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
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02 Aug 14
10 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
I've stated many times in these debates about your horrendous belief about the nature of god, that I have no issue with there being a 2nd death or a lake of fire or any other real or symbolic things your are talking about.
It IS horrendous. It IS terrible.
It is horrendous because a horrendous punishment awaits those who follow a horrendous Satan to his horrendous destiny.
You are arguing that I am interpreting biblical descriptions wrongly.
Sometimes I wish that were true.
But in good conscience I cannot believe that certain words are being interpreted wrongly.
What I have an issue with is that death is not life for eternity in an incinerator while your version of god watches.
Is that ALL you think God is interested in?
That the devil in there forever is on no concern to me.
I've have met some Universalists who are more hard core than that. They teach that even the Devil will sometime be reconciled to God as well.
It says that where the Devil was cast, the beast and the false prophet were. Now they were cast in 1,000 years earlier. And they are still there when Satan goes in because the plural pronoun "THEY" is used about their punishment -
" ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10) .
It does not say the Devil alone as "he will be tormented". But he and the previous two dupes who preceded him by 1,000 years - "THEY ... will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
I am not just filling up space now. I am trying to help you.
Not just "THEY" plural will be tormented but the same fate is apparently prepared "for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41) -
"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)
So we have so far -
1.) The devil
2.) the beast and the false prophet
3.) the angels of the devil
4.) whoever Christ is speaking to in Matthew 25:41 - who appear to be "goats" (humans) from the nations (v.32)-
"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."
5.) We would have to consider also the demons who know that they are to be tormented -
"And they [demons] cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us?" (Matt. 8:29)
6.) Then those whose names are not recorded in the book of life (Rev. 20:15).
I hate to be too curt. But you do not do well when I write too many words. Suffice it to say I cannot in clear conscience imagine that ONLY the Devil will suffer the fate.
Are there DIFFERENT degrees of suffering ? I speculate sometimes. The answer is that I do not know.
But what is communicated suggests that the place in its entirety is to be avoided through the salvation provided by God.
02 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJayJesus was clear a couple other things there. Like who goes into the everlasting fire.
I think Jesus is very clear on how long punishment is going to last.
Kelly
Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not ...[text shortened]... e.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Those who did not do good works. Do you also accept that part of your quote?
02 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Thread "How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?"
Nobody here and neither does the Bible say that ..ONLY the Devil will suffer the fate.
Did anyone say that?
Did anyone ask you to believe that as well?
page 9:
Originally posted by Rajk999 to josephw
English Comprehension .. when God was sharing that you were in the other line getting a big mouth.
ONLY 3 BEINGS ARE TORMENTED.
Its not everyone.
Originally posted by josephw to Rajk999
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Of course it's not everyone Rajk. It's whosoever[b].
Same thread page 26
Originally posted by RJHinds to shavixmir
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him [b]two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to TORMENT us before the time? ...
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ...
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 8:28-29; 25:31-34, 41, 46 King James Version (KJV)
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, THE SAME shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of THEIR TORMENT ASCENDTH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name...
And THE BEAST was taken, and with him THE FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone...
And THE DEVIL that deceived them was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And WHOSOEVER was NOT FOUND WRITEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
Revelation 14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10-15 King James Version (KJV)
I believe the above combination of scriptures proves that there are more than just three beings that are tormented as you claimed.
02 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayGood grief Kelly do you ever read anyone else's posts? For once and for all:
I think Jesus is very clear on how long punishment is going to last.
Kelly
Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not ...[text shortened]... e.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I have no argument that the bible says there is a second death
I have no argument that the bible says this occurs in a lake of fire
I have no argument that the lake of fire is described as everlasting
I have no argument that the bible says the devil will be in there forever
But, I DO have a argument against the bible saying that those who experience the second death will actually not be dead but be ALIVE in the lake of fire (which is itself everlasting) forever/eternity.
What is it with you people!
02 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsAn eternal punishment is not the same as being alive and being punished for eternity. If you are dead in eternity, that is an eternal punishment. Do you see the difference?
That exact combination of words is not used. However, there is the concept of an eternal punishment by everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, which is called the Second Death.
[b]"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Matthew 25:46 NASB)[/b]