Four Kinds of Forgiveness

@FMF

I lack belief in the "Eternal Most High God" you talk about and find the torturer god ideology part of your beliefs morally incoherent.

I lack belief in your sense of justice being beyond God's.

On a scale of one to ten how would you rate your morality as compared to that of Jesus Christ , ten being the highest and one being the lowest.

Compared to Christ where does your ethics stand in comparison of competition ?

@sonship said
You do not "lack belief" that the message is unjust about eternal punishment. You HAVE belief that that message is a moral abomination.

It's incoherent.

What is the purpose of torturing people for their lack of belief after they die?

Was the threat supposed to coerce people into becoming believers while they were alive?

If it didn't work, and they died as non-believers, what would be the purpose of carrying out the threat if the people still alive do not know?

Have you seen the film "Dr Strangelove"?

Your torturer god ideology is morally and psychologically incoherent.

@sonship said
I lack belief in your sense of justice being beyond God's.

So what?

@FMF

It's your ideology that is being scrutinized and judged. That is presumably what why you air your ideology on a 'debate and discussion' forum on a non-Christian website, right?

Then you should be able to tell me why eternal punishment for rebellion against the ultimate Goodness is unjust.

"I'm here to debate" you insist.

So why isn't a greatest possible crime unjust to be accompanied with the greatest penalty of punishment ?

Why ?

( I am retiring now. You'll explain below without having to reiterate what you lack belief in).

@sonship said
Why is it just that you finally receive what you want - to be without God and God's government ?

Well, I don't believe in your "God" and in your "God's government", so why are you asking me?

@sonship said
Why is it not good that an ultimate evil deed be ultimately rewarded with everlasting conquest? You get what you want. You get the dubious eternal thrill of thinking " I opposed GOD. Think of it. I was against God!"

I am an agnostic atheist, so I don't believe any of this stuff. I am not "opposed" to god or gods. I lack belief in them. You sometimes sound like you have never talked to an atheist before.

@sonship said
Then you should be able to tell me why eternal punishment for rebellion against the ultimate Goodness is unjust.

"Justice" needs to be coherent, doesn't it? It has to be coherent for it to be a deterrent, right? And people need to see it administered for it to be credible, yes?

I am not in a "rebellion against the ultimate Goodness". I simply doen't have the same beliefs as you do vis a vis "the ultimate Goodness".

@sonship said
So why isn't a greatest possible crime unjust to be accompanied with the greatest penalty of punishment ?

What do you say is the "greatest possible crime"?

@sonship said
Compared to Christ where does your ethics stand in comparison of competition ?

I am not asking you to separate yourself from the cult of personality that was constructed by early Christians with Jesus at its centre. I don't need you to think that I am more ethical than anyone. I don't want you to stop following Jesus and follow me instead. You wheel this one out over and over again. It doesn't work.

@sonship said
Why is it unjust that your enjoyment of being forever at enmity with God is accompanied with endless defeat to your comfort ? Doesn't the message include that this God went as far as it is possible for Him to go that you be saved from yourself in this?

I am not "forever at enmity with God" I am simply not a member of your religion. That's all.

@FMF

I am an agnostic atheist, so I don't believe any of this stuff. I am not "opposed" to god or gods. I lack belief in them. You sometimes sound like you have never talked to an atheist before.

So you're the epitome of the new improved "agnostic atheist" for whom it is some grand dignity to speak to.

What an unexpected honor this is, to talk to this special being, an " AGNOSTIC ATHEIST."

I didn't see your answer in this post why your self love makes you beyond eternal punishment.

Did you design yourself ?
Was your circulatory system your invention?
Was your respiratory system your original design?
Was your ability to think, weigh moral judgments a product of your creative skill?

"It is He that has made us and not we ourselves."

You argue that you lack belief in God. Suppose God doesn't lack belief that He created you?

Suppose God believes that you exist?

Your very existence indicates that there is a higher authority and power then you.

Which displays more authority you or the entity that is responsible for the creation of you ?

I see four or more replies. One of them I hope to see your answer why it is wrong that there could not be an ultimate crime accompanied by an ultimate punishment.

And I don't see how being an "AGNOSTIC ATHEIST" puts you in some unassailable category should your "AGNOSTIC ATHEISM" turn out to be a deceptive lie you banked on as a fool.

@FMF

"Justice" needs to be coherent, doesn't it? It has to be coherent for it to be a deterrent, right? And people need to see it administered for it to be credible, yes?

Your capacity to deny that God has been shown to you is endless. You may always decide that the evidence for God is not enough is not enough is not enough.

Maybe you'd like God to write across the night sky tonight "Here I am FMF. I am writing in the stars so you can know that I am here."

God may not be pleased to give you more of a sign that He is then what He gives you. You have the word of God, the Bible. You have the words and life of Jesus and His taking your need to be saved very seriously.

Maybe your demand that you don't have enough indication that God is is an excuse that you could employ forever, if there were no terminal point.

There is a terminal point at which the truth has to be faced.

Even Jesus had to come to a final point where He was either proved right or proved wrong. Even Jesus had to face an ultimatum of whether what He believed was true or not.

I am not in a "rebellion against the ultimate Goodness".

I lack belief that you don't know that God is.
I think you hold down the knowledge of God with much energy. In a sense you come to show off here how strong you can be to hold down the realization of God.

One a trillion times smarter than you will have to finally face the facts. I don't know why your self love puts you in a privileged class in which you will not also finally face the facts.

I simply doen't have the same beliefs as you do vis a vis "the ultimate Goodness".

Then you have no basis to judge your eternal damnation is not right and just.

The higher referee or higher authority by which you deem God's condemning you forever as unjust - where did that higher referee or higher standard come from?

@sonship said

So you're the epitome of the new improved "agnostic atheist" for whom it is some grand dignity to speak to.

What an unexpected honor this is, to talk to this special being, an " AGNOSTIC ATHEIST."

I didn't see your answer in this post why your self love makes you beyond eternal punishment.

Did you design yourself ?
Was your circulatory system your invention?
Was your respiratory system your original design?
Was your ability to think, weigh moral judgments a product of your creative skill?

"It is He that has made us and not we ourselves."

You argue that you lack belief in God. Suppose God doesn't lack belief that He created you?

Suppose God believes that you exist?

Your very existence indicates that there is a higher authority and power then you.

Which displays more authority you or the entity that is responsible for the creation of you ?

I see four or more replies. One of them I hope to see your answer why it is wrong that there could not be an ultimate crime accompanied by an ultimate punishment.

And I don't see how being an "AGNOSTIC ATHEIST" puts you in some unassailable category should your "AGNOSTIC ATHEISM" turn out to be a deceptive lie you banked on as a fool.

All this seemingly emotional ranting, sonship, instead of addressing the content of my calm and sincere answers. What gives?

@FMF

I am not "forever at enmity with God" I am simply not a member of your religion. That's all.

The law of gravity exists. It does so even though I am not a member of the Physics Department at MIT.

If you have no ultimate moral truth then how can you judge your eternal punishment as ultimately against the highest moral good?

Is your self love the highest religion ?
Will your self love be the final bar of judgment for all beings?

@FMF

All this seemingly emotional ranting, sonship, instead of addressing the content of my calm and sincere answers. What gives?

Who said you cannot be dead wrong and calm at the same time?

Big deal.
So FMF is a debonair Cary Grant of "Agnostic Atheism" as cool as Miles Davis. Like ... big deal.

No answer seen yet why an your inordinate self love puts you beyond the possibility of being under eternal retribution.

You see you want to temporarily steal from the world view of ultimate rightness to argue that it is wrong that you be judged ultimately.