11 Jul 20
@kingdavid403 saidI think I finally understand your position.
Thanks for your opinion and adding to the discussion.
In my opinion,
How can it not be?
Because they don't know Jesus; yet anyway. However, they know there's a God, He's Good and Holy, and they diligently are seeking Him. Do you not think Jesus has them saved at this point? This is my point; period. Nothing more, nothing less.
Since they're truly see ...[text shortened]... right then, do you think Jesus saved them? Anyone?
Edit: Don't forget those in the Old Testament.
If a person, P, believes in God, then they are automatically saved through Jesus' redemptive work, even if they do not believe that the work took place, or they are unaware of it happening.
This means Muslims, for example, are saved by believing in God, even though they actively deny that Jesus was a deity at all.
I've got to say, that is one of the most bizarre interpretations of Christianity I have ever heard, and I've been talking about this stuff a long time. 🙂
11 Jul 20
@bigdoggproblem saidHow can it not be?
I think I finally understand your position.
If a person, P, believes in God, then they are automatically saved through Jesus' redemptive work, even if they do not believe that the work took place, or they are unaware of it happening.
This means Muslims, for example, are saved by believing in God, even though they actively deny that Jesus was a deity at all.
I' ...[text shortened]... pretations of Christianity I have ever heard, and I've been talking about this stuff a long time. 🙂
Because they don't know Jesus; yet anyway. However, they know there's a God, He's Good and Holy, and they diligently are seeking Him. Do you not think Jesus has them saved at this point? This is my point; period. Nothing more, nothing less.
Since they're truly seeking after God, even tho they don't know Jesus, If they died right then, do you think Jesus saved them? Anyone?
Edit: Don't forget those in the Old Testament.
Please tell me what part of my position above you do not understand?
Please try to do this without your assumptions on my beliefs about Muslims, or others. My position on this post is stated above in this post. Nothing more and nothing less. Please share what it is that you do not understand? Please share why you think it is the weirdest Christianity you have ever TALKED ABOUT. lol...
11 Jul 20
2 edits
@bigdoggproblem saidhttps://www.islamicity.org/5797/jesus-in-islam/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwo6D4BRDgARIsAA6uN1_Sg4zfKFWRNKcJcuDMt6yOuYk9n7fh9IGMhiMiaNrlKctwFr2caLoaAum-EALw_wcB
I think I finally understand your position.
If a person, P, believes in God, then they are automatically saved through Jesus' redemptive work, even if they do not believe that the work took place, or they are unaware of it happening.
This means Muslims, for example, are saved by believing in God, even though they actively deny that Jesus was a deity at all.
I' ...[text shortened]... pretations of Christianity I have ever heard, and I've been talking about this stuff a long time. 🙂
If you want to know how Islam believes and worships Jesus, I suggest learning some truths. They are all in the link I provided above. Extremely good Islamic website that spells it all out. And guess what, the article was written by Muslims and the website is run by Muslims. Spooky huh? lol... Also, Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah; and, that it is Jesus who is coming back to judge the world.
@bigdoggproblem saidI've got to say, that is one of the most bizarre interpretations of Christianity I have ever heard, and I've been talking about this stuff a long time.
I think I finally understand your position.If a person, P, believes in God, then they are automatically saved through Jesus' redemptive work, even if they do not believe that the work took place, or they are unaware of it happening.This means Muslims, for example, are saved by believing in God, even though they actively deny that Jesus was a deity at all.I've got to sa ...[text shortened]... pretations of Christianity I have ever heard, and I've been talking about this stuff a long time. 🙂
Is it not - at least - akin [shall we say] to the theology Rajk999 espouses?
11 Jul 20
@KingDavid403
Matthew 7:20-23 KJV - "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. By their fruits, not by their talk.
11 Jul 20
@fmf saidGood point.
I've got to say, that is one of the most bizarre interpretations of Christianity I have ever heard, and I've been talking about this stuff a long time.
Is it not - at least - akin [shall we say] to the theology Rajk999 espouses?
Maybe it's the presentation that's bizarre, LOL.
11 Jul 20
@philokalia saidThen give us the passage that we may understand what you mean.
There are those that were unable to receive Christ, whether due to never being exposed to Him, or whether due to very extenuating circumstances, who will be saved.
A passage in Luke 12 tells us about the nature of this.
@kingdavid403 saidYou claimed there are NO scriptures in the bible claiming that belief in Jesus is necessary for salvation; you are demonstrably incorrect as I’ve given you one.
I see you have conceded because you have NOTHING. LOL...
Belief in Jesus (at first), or accepting Jesus as ones Savior, is NOT a requirement for salvation. 🙂
I’m not really interested in your convoluted and contradictory interpretation of salvation, I’m just showing you that you are in fact wrong about the bible.
@kingdavid403 saidMy lies and false witness, what are you on about?
Oh, I've made up my mind about your complete lies and false witness. Trust me.
"You will know them by their fruits."
All I’ve done is shown you that there are scriptures in the bible which state unequivocally that a belief in Jesus Christ is required for salvation.
11 Jul 20
@kingdavid403 saidThis is pure conjecture, what Suzianne thinks that Jews thought at that moment, or what convolutions in terms of eternal salvation vs the timeline continuum before Jesus actual death and resurrection are totally irrelevant.
Thanks for your opinion and adding to the discussion.
In my opinion,
How can it not be?
Because they don't know Jesus; yet anyway. However, they know there's a God, He's Good and Holy, and they diligently are seeking Him. Do you not think Jesus has them saved at this point? This is my point; period. Nothing more, nothing less.
Since they're truly see ...[text shortened]... right then, do you think Jesus saved them? Anyone?
Edit: Don't forget those in the Old Testament.
You have been given a scripture where Jesus states unequivocally that a belief in him is necessary. What you do with that and whether you admit that your claim that there are no scriptures explaining this requirement is a measure of your intellectual honesty.
11 Jul 20
@bigdoggproblem saidAlthough his belief structure on this topic is warped beyond comprehension, what KingDavid403 actually believes himself is irrelevant to his claim that there are no scriptures in the bible explaining that a belief in Jesus necessary for salvation. Clearly there are as I’ve given him a classic one.
I've got to say, that is one of the most bizarre interpretations of Christianity I have ever heard, and I've been talking about this stuff a long time. 🙂
11 Jul 20
@philokalia saidHere is Luke 12 in its entirety, where does this text tell us about people who will be saved through extenuating circumstances or never hearing of Christ?
There are those that were unable to receive Christ, whether due to never being exposed to Him, or whether due to very extenuating circumstances, who will be saved.
A passage in Luke 12 tells us about the nature of this.
Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.
4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
11 “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”
13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”
16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’
20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.
32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36 like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. 39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
54 He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time?
57 “Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”
11 Jul 20
@fmf saidI don’t think so, Rajk999 is focused on works and obedience, not seeking God.
I've got to say, that is one of the most bizarre interpretations of Christianity I have ever heard, and I've been talking about this stuff a long time.
Is it not - at least - akin [shall we say] to the theology Rajk999 espouses?
11 Jul 20
@divegeester saidI couldn't see it either, that's why I asked him for the passage.
Here is Luke 12 in its entirety, where does this text tell us about people who will be saved through extenuating circumstances or never hearing of Christ?
Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which ...[text shortened]... throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”