Damnation of the saved

@rajk999 said
More vague church doctrine.

So you are fond of saying 'pick up your cross daily ..." etc. So you think that tells anyone about the teachings of Christ? You have a cross parked in your garage and you pick that up and go to work? What is that about?

What is stopping you from repeating what Jesus said about good works?

Jesus said to love God and each other and when you love someone you take care of them, putting them above yourself laying down your life for them. It not only is a foundational guidepost for how we are to behave, it’s a relationship guide for life. Even to our enemies not just to those that please us.

You think your attitude is godly, or godless?

@Rajk999

Your questions are vague and nonsensical?
I have no patience with stupid questions.

If you really want me to answer please post questions clearly.
Thanks

How do you know that Romans 8:31-34 only pertains some "elect" which doesn't include all Christians?

Concerning Romans 8:31-34 YOU WROTE:

Paul here refers to the elect of God. those predestined for the Kingdom of God. If you think you are in that group then that is fine with me. You have something in common with the JWs who think, contrary to clear statements in the bible, that they are the 144,000 referred to in Revelation. Thats cool. Believe as you wish.

Now if you CANNOT demonstrate that the elect there is does not mean all Christians don't try to decorate your inability in "That's cool. Believe as you wish."

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (v.31)

Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up FOR US ALL, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things? (v.32)

Who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies. (v.33)

Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather. who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (v.34)

Prove that these words only pertain to some "elect" and not all the "elect" for whom Christ intercedes after dying and rising to justify them.

@kellyjay said
You think your attitude is godly, or godless?

Is any Christian's attitude at RHP "godly"? What is the evidence that a poster is "godly"? Do you see yourself as "godly"?

@fmf said
Is any Christian's attitude at RHP "godly"? What is the evidence that a poster is "godly"? Do you see yourself as "godly"?

Are you Rajk by any chance ? You always seem to respond to questions directed at him.

@kellyjay said
Jesus said to love God and each other and when you love someone you take care of them, putting them above yourself laying down your life for them. It not only is a foundational guidepost for how we are to behave, it’s a relationship guide for life. Even to our enemies not just to those that please us.

You think your attitude is godly, or godless?

I have made no boast of having the Holy Spirit. I have never condemned others outside of Christianity, by stating that they will face eternal torment. You have done that .

You can therefore called into question because the Holy Spirit did not guide you to teaching the commandments of Christ. your words are still full of vague church doctrine and in no way resembles what Jesus preached.

So I say again you are a fraud.

@rajk999 said
I have made no boast of having the Holy Spirit. I have never condemned others outside of Christianity, by stating that they will face eternal torment. You have done that .

You can therefore called into question because the Holy Spirit did not guide you to teaching the commandments of Christ. your words are still full of vague church doctrine and in no way resembles what Jesus preached.

So I say again you are a fraud.

You've told me I'll burn in hell.........

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Your questions are vague and nonsensical?
I have no patience with stupid questions.

If you really want me to answer please post questions clearly.
Thanks

How do you know that Romans 8:31-34 only pertains some "elect" which doesn't include all Christians?

Concerning Romans 8:31-34 YOU WROTE:

[quote] Paul here refe ...[text shortened]... e "elect" and not all the "elect" for whom Christ intercedes after dying and rising to justify them.

There are many parts of the Bible where a specific group is addressed. eg Jesus addresses 11 disciples and gives them specific powers to heal and to preach. He also addresses 70 disciples and sends them out. If someone wants to think that applies to them as well that is fine. They are free to go out and preach as Jesus commanded. But I know it does not apply to me. So everyone must do what their conscience tells them is right.

In this case, Paul says he is addressing Roman Saints, called by God and chosen and predestined to be the elect.

Therefore the onus is on YOU to demonstrate if you so wish that it applies to you, or all Christians for that matter, and that everything said in Romans applies to you as well. It is not for me to prove that it applies to the Roman church. Paul already says who he is addressing.

In addition there are very clear statements in Romans that prove that all of Christianity cannot be included in the elect. Again you can choose to believe that if you so desire.

@galveston75 said
You've told me I'll burn in hell.........

Everyone who has an ounce of memory and read what I write, know that I do not believe that any human will burn in hell for all eternity. Clearly you have less than one ounce.

@Rajk999

There are many parts of the Bible where a specific group is addressed. eg Jesus addresses 11 disciples and gives them specific powers to heal and to preach.

Was Stephen among them?
He was not.

Was the Apostle Paul among them?
No, HE was not.

Was Ananias who prayed for Paul's eye healing among them? (Acts 9:17)
No, he was not.

Yet preach and heal Stephen, Ananias, Paul DID.

So what pertained to the 11 God extended to Christians beyond the limit of those 11.

He also addresses 70 disciples and sends them out. If someone wants to think that applies to them as well that is fine. They are free to go out and preach as Jesus commanded. But I know it does not apply to me. So everyone must do what their conscience tells them is right.

These reasons don't work to force Romans 8:31-34 NOT to refer to all Christians.

"We", "us", "us all", "us" again, "God's chosen ones", "us" again refers to the universal church.

You're much more of a restrictive elitist cult like Bible teacher than I am by MILES!

1.) God did not "spare His own Son" for the church universal not just for 70 or 11 or 144,000.

2.) God "gave Him up for us all" being the universal church not a subset.

3.) God freely with Christ to "give us all things" is a promise to the church universal, not to 11 or 70 or 144,000 or a remnant.

4.) Christ's death justifies the church universal - "It is God who justifies."

5.) Christ "died" and "was raised" and "intercedes for us" pertains to the universal church.

In this case, Paul says he is addressing Roman Saints, called by God and chosen and predestined to be the elect.

The book of Romans while addressed to the saints in Rome is for the church universal. That is why it is in the New Testament by God's sovereignty.

"I am debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to foolish; So, for my part I am ready to announce the gospel to you ALSO who are in Rome." (1:14,15)

Therefore the onus is on YOU to demonstrate if you so wish that it applies to you,

Onus accepted. I just did. Christ was given, died, raised, justifies, intercedes at the right hand of God for the church universal.

All the actions of God and Christ in Romans 8:31-34 were not for just a subset of the church but for the church universally.

Did He only DIE for 11?
Did He only raise from the dead for 70?
Does He only intercede at the right hand of God for 144,000?

or all Christians for that matter, and that everything said in Romans applies to you as well. It is not for me to prove that it applies to the Roman church. Paul already says who he is addressing.

Chapter 10:11-13 say

For the Scripture says, EVERYONE ... who believes on Him shall not be put to shame. (v.11)

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him. (v.12)

for whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Note, is doesn't say they shall never be disciplined.
It does say they shall all be SAVED.

The promise is to the church universal. And you are FAR more cultist like, exclusive, elitist then I am meeting with the local churches.

In addition there are very clear statements in Romans that prove that all of Christianity cannot be included in the elect. Again you can choose to believe that if you so desire.

But ALL in the Body of Christ are included in its promises.

For just as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, So we who are many are one Body in Christ, and individually members one of another. (Rom. 12:4,5)

All with the LIFE of Christ are members of the mystical Body of Christ. And that is the universal brotherhood of believers in Christ.

@sonship said

Therefore the onus is on YOU to demonstrate if you so wish that it applies to you,

Onus accepted. I just did. Christ was given, died, raised, justifies, intercedes at the right hand of God for the church universal.

All the actions of God and Christ in Romans 8:31-34 were not for just a subset of the church but for the church universally.

D ...[text shortened]... embers of the mystical Body of Christ. And that is the universal brotherhood of believers in Christ.

Volumes and volumes of nonsense. I notice that you are steering clear of what Paul said in Romans about sin and this very same elect.

This is what you do. All the nice stuff that Paul said applies to you. All the bad stuff about those who sin, you twist it and manipulate it so that the meaning is changed.

@Rajk999

Volumes and volumes of nonsense. I notice that you are steering clear of what Paul said in Romans about sin and this very same elect.

Tell me Rajk999. Do you think everything in the Bible can be made perfectly clear in under 25 words ?

If it takes volumes and volumes (which it didn't ) to get the truth, what does the genuine seeker for truth care?

Do you think all Bible issues can be made completely clear in under 25 words?

This is what you do. All the nice stuff that Paul said applies to you.

It is not "nice stuff". It is God's promises with His faithfulness to His own word.

All the bad stuff about those who sin, you twist it and manipulate it so that the meaning is changed.

There is NOTHING --- NOTHING in Romans 8:31-34 which teaches it will be good for the Christian to shrug and live on in sinning.

You jump to conclusions like a crazy wild man.

You do not even have the assurance that Christ DIED for you, that Christ was RAISED for you, that God will give WITH Christ to you all things, that Christ died that God would JUSTIFY you, or that Jesus INTERCEDES for you.

"Oh, that all refers to the special little group over there."

Pitiful.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Volumes and volumes of nonsense. I notice that you are steering clear of what Paul said in Romans about sin and this very same elect.

Tell me Rajk999. Do you think everything in the Bible can be made perfectly clear in under 25 words ?

If it takes volumes and volumes (which it didn't ) to get the truth, what does the genuine seeker for tru ...[text shortened]... you.

"Oh, that all refers to the special little group over there."

Pitiful.

Still you are in denial about Pauls teaching regarding sin. The nice stuff is what you speak of. The sin you gloss it over.

The Christian who sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God
The Christian who sins will be destroyed
The Christian who sins will be cut off
The Christian who sins will be cast out

You can try all you like but those words of Paul apply to Christian Saints.
Its not all nice stuff.

@rajk999 said
Still you are in denial about Pauls teaching regarding sin. The nice stuff is what you speak of. The sin you gloss it over.

The Christian who sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God
The Christian who sins will be destroyed
The Christian who sins will be cut off
The Christian who sins will be cast out

You can try all you like but those words of Paul apply to Christian Saints.
Its not all nice stuff.

Sins habitually or on the odd occasion?

Do you believe Christians exist that never sin?

@dj2becker said
Sins habitually or on the odd occasion?

I dont know. Do you? Only Jesus will judge that.

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:2-5 KJV)

What I do know is sonships doctrine is unbiblical.
Righteous Christian Saints will inherit the Kingdom of God
The unrighteous Christian Saints will be cast out.

Even in the book under discussion Romans, sonship ignores all the warnings about sin and the consequences.