@sonship said
@Rajk999

Where does the bible say anyone is eternally redeemed?

So you are saying that Christ DID NOT find an eternal redemption for anyone.

It says He DID. You say He DID NOT.
[quote]
[b] But Christ having come a High Priest ... but through His own blood, entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having found an eternal redemption (Hebrews 9 ...[text shortened]... to the conclusion that to believe such is only the excuse of Christians to continue to live in sin ?

You cannot read. Please read my post further up the previous page.
I have no intention of repeating it.

@sonship said
@dj2becker

He is certainly determined to defend the indefensible just to try and prove his superiority above the church for some obscure reason. Fascinating indeed.

I don't understand the stubbornness of the man.

It’s like talking to a brick wall.

@Rajk999

It is difficult for cult members to understand the normal thinking people of the outside world. Its a common phenomenon. It is not your fault.

Explain to us poor cult members then why I should change Hebrews 9:12 to read that Christ has NOT found "an eternal redemption".

And explain to this poor cult member in need of deprogramming why in Hebrews 9:15 the redemption (the"eternal redemption" (v.12) ) does not lead to the receiving of the promise of "THE eternal inheritance" .

@rajk999 said
It is difficult for cult members to understand the normal thinking people of the outside world. Its a common phenomenon. It is not your fault.

Ironically cult members believe they are the only ones that are right and that all other churches are deceived.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

It is difficult for cult members to understand the normal thinking people of the outside world. Its a common phenomenon. It is not your fault.

Explain to us poor cult members then why I should change Hebrews 9:12 to read that Christ has NOT found "an eternal redemption".

And explain to this poor cult member in need of dep ...[text shortened]... itance" [/b].

You're suppose to be free from cult influence. Explain these two matters to us.

Not interested.

@rajk999 said
Not interested.

😴

@Rajk999

Not interested.

You're not interested because you CANNOT change the word of God.

You cannot force Hebrews 9:12 to READ the OPPOSITE of what it READS.

A few more English renderings of Hebrews 9:12

New American Standard 1977
... He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Weymouth New Testament
... but His own blood, and thus procuring eternal redemption for us.

American King James Version
... but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
... but with his own blood he entered the holy place one time and has achieved eternal redemption.

International Standard Version
... but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption.

New Heart English Bible
... but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained everlasting redemption.

Jubilee Bible 2000
... but by his own blood he entered in once into the sanctuary designed for eternal redemption.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Not interested.

You're not interested because you CANNOT change the word of God.

You cannot force Hebrews 9:12 to READ the OPPOSITE of what it READS.

A few more English renderings of Hebrews 9:12

New American Standard 1977
... He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemp ...[text shortened]... blood he entered in once into the sanctuary [b] designed for eternal redemption.

If he is able to twist the word lost to mean saved, anything’s possible.🤷‍♂️

@dj2becker said
If he is able to twist the word lost to mean saved, anything’s possible.🤷‍♂️

The ability to twist language destroys all hope of understanding.

@Rajk999

The point stands, Saved Christian Saints who have the Holy Spirit, but who live in sin are not accepted in the Kingdom of God. Christ will judge who these people are.

That is different from saying there are no eternally redeemed.
The believer who is to "suffer loss" INSTEAD of receiving a reward in First Corinthians 3, still partakes of eternal redemption.

Don't blame me. Don't blame Nee or Lee. Don't blame anyone.

"If anyone's work shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Now WHAT is the scope of possibilities in "suffer loss" ?

I think it is as WIDE as the wise Father needs to MAKE it for the Christian's correction and perfection. It may be light or severe and most likely VERY severe. The latitude is under God's wise control not ours.

We should all want to be saved PLUS rewarded and avoid the catagory of "suffer loss" though saved.

That is saying God's only means of discipline, chastisement, correction to His sons is to revoke their eternal redemption.

Saying Christ has OBTAINED and eternal redemption is not say God's hands are completely tied and no one saved can be disciplined either in this age or in the age to come.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

The point stands, Saved Christian Saints who have the Holy Spirit, but who live in sin are not accepted in the Kingdom of God. Christ will judge who these people are.

That is different from saying there are no eternally redeemed.
The believer who is to "suffer loss" INSTEAD of receiving a reward in First Corinthians 3, still partakes of ...[text shortened]... ds are completely tied and no one saved can be disciplined either in this age or in the age to come.

The extent that you go to twist the bible to make your church doctrine is pretty amazing. Incredible how you dont mind making yourself a big idiot by trying to equate suffer loss, to DESTROY. How could any right thinking person be happy to do that?

Worse you equate destruction of the flesh by Satan to GOD WILL DESTROY.

Thankfully these doctrines are repeated several times, so it only a dunce that swallows church doctrine, will believe your explanations. Paul in several other letters stated in clear no nonsense language that these very same Christians who live in sin will NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Twist that.

@kellyjay said
Well said.

Thank you sir!!!!!!

@rajk999 said
This is what I have been saying here for about 14 years.
Enduring great opposition from the Christians here.
So it is a good post.
However it sure is not your writing style.
Where did you copy and paste it from?

It is from JW.ORG under "salvation". Sorry I meant to add that info.....

@Rajk999

The extent that you go to twist the bible to make your church doctrine is pretty amazing. Incredible how you dont mind making yourself a big idiot by trying to equate suffer loss, to DESTROY. How could any right thinking person be happy to do that?

Before you go on to verse 18 explain how one is a "big idiot" to understand that some Christians in verse 14 are SAVED and rewarded and some Christians in verse15 are SAVED yet suffer loss.

Why is one a "big idiot" to read and understand what Paul wrote there ?

The fact of the matter is that verse 17 - "God shall destroy him" doesn't change the fact that verses 14,15 teach:

1.) Saved and rewarded Christians.

2.) Saved and suffering loss Christians.

That FACT is not altered by however we regard "destroy" in verse 17.

Thankfully these doctrines are repeated several times, so it only a dunce that swallows church doctrine,

How is one a "dunce" to understand that in verses 14 and 15 the Apostle Paul teaches of:

1.) Those Christians SAVED and rewarded vs
2.) Those Christians SAVED and to suffer loss?

How is one a "dunce" to not want to wipe out the word "saved" from verse 15?

" ... but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire." (v.15)

will believe your explanations. Paul in several other letters stated in clear no nonsense language that these very same Christians who live in sin will NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Twist that.

Not rewarded and not inheriting the kingdom of God in the millennial period is logical.

Rewarded and inheriting the kingdom of God in the millennial period is logical.

That both are saved is what is stated.

One eternally saved may dispensation-ally not inherit the kingdom of God at a certain stage when he should have been prepared to do so.

Not being prepared he will "suffer loss". But he eventually is disciplined and ready to inherit the kingdom of God in eternity after the millennium.