1. S. Korea
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    23 Jul '20 23:561 edit
    I was not sure whether to put this in science or spirituality, but since it involves more meta than actual science, and because the Spirituality forum really needs less personal & drama-driven posts, I've decided to deposit it here.

    An article by Denyse O'Leary:

    J. Scott Turner of SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse, New York, “the oldest and most distinguished institution in the United States that focuses on the study of the environment,” is best known for his study of termite mounds, a classic social insect colony that functions with a hive mind, that is, a communal brain with no specific physical location. Insects can do that because they do not have the sort of selves that would apprehend, reflect on, or challenge the system by which they live.

    That must have set Turner thinking about the way modern naturalism (mindless nature is all there is) impoverishes biology and our understanding of life in general. Hence his recent book, Purpose and Desire: What Makes Something “Alive” and Why Modern Darwinism Has Failed to Explain It. He must have started thinking about such questions over a decade ago, when he wrote an opinion piece for the Chronicle of Higher Education, “Why Can't We Discuss Intelligent Design?” (January 2007, paywalled)

    Current popular controversy centres on Darwin vs. intelligent design and there are many books on both sides out there. It is less well known, however, that a number of books critical of Darwinism do not embrace design. One thinks of David Stove’s Darwinian Fairy-tales (2007), Jerry Fodor’s What Darwin Got Wrong (2010), and Thomas Nagel’s Mind and Cosmos (2012), written by respected philosophers with no theist bent. The actual conflict is not either/or.

    But our current author is Turner, who describes himself as a Christian “but not a very good one”. That is a somewhat ambiguous claim because, for theological reasons, few Christians will describe themselves as “very good.” However, he says it defensively because hostile colleagues have implied that he had no right to doubt Darwin.

    So why does he? He explains, “I have come to believe that there is something presently wrong with how we scientists think about life, its existence, its origins, and its evolution … What’s worse is that being forced to make the choice actually stands in the way of our having a fully coherent theory of life, in all its aspects, most notably its evolution. In other words, this bias is now hindering scientific progress”.

    The basic problem, he contends, is that current biology requires us to view life forms as machines. Yet a key characteristic of life forms is the intention of remaining alive and purposeful activity toward that end. For Turner, homeostasis (the way a life form balances itself within an environment and all of its cells balance themselves within it in order to stay alive) is central to understanding life, but largely ignored.

    It’s not hard to see why it is ignored. If life evolved, purposeless and unguided, why is there so much purpose and guidance within it? Many readers may be surprised to learn, for example, that “cold-blooded” life forms like lizards go to considerable intentional trouble to regulate their body temperatures, which Turner describes as a “cognitive state”, meaning that the humble lizard seeks to stay alive by managing its relationship to its environment.

    Turner flirts with the idea that life forms show evidence of intelligent design. But he feels conflicted and often contradicts himself. For example, about origin of life he says, “The dilemma is obvious: each of the two necessary attributes of current life—heredity and metabolism—must exist for the other to exist. It is impossible (deluded, actually) to imagine such an intertwined system coming together all at once, with no intelligence guiding it. Yet if we are to believe that original life was anything like current life, we must believe they somehow did precisely that. To use a loaded phrase, present life seems to be ‘irreducibly complex.’”

    But why is the phrase “loaded”? Turner does not answer clearly right away. But anyone who follows the controversies must know that in the world of Darwin, the phrase has sidelined many a career. Complexity is held to be built up from natural selection acting on random mutations (Darwinism) irrespective of the fact that such a scenario would easily exhaust the probabilities of our universe in time. A multiverse has recently been recruited to help.

    Later, he says that “it is the very phrase advocates of intelligent design theory use to supposedly refute Darwinism. The phrase is nevertheless apt for the dilemma that is at the heart of the origin of life.” But what does Turner mean by “supposedly refute” Darwinism. He make clear that he is not a Darwinist himself though he never specifies the difference between his view and that of the ID theorists. That said, he wishes them more academic freedom. And in this book, which he describes as an outline of how he came to change his mind about fully Darwinian naturalism, he says “I hope that spirit came through as you read it.”

    In a world dominated by scientifically unproductive naturalism, we need that spirit now. All Turner seems to feel he can do is point us in a direction he dare not follow himself.

    Notes: Turner’s publisher (HarperOne) offers a small group study guide. The middle part of Purpose and Desire is a good summary of the history of philosophy of biology, which will be quite helpful to students and teachers, especially if we are trying to go deeper than the headlines in current controversies. His previous book was The Tinkerer's Accomplice: How Design Emerges from Life Itself.

    https://mercatornet.com/a-biologist-awakens-from-reductionism-and-begins-to-rediscover-life/22680/
  2. Standard memberSecondSon
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    24 Jul '20 00:47
    @Philokalia

    Above my pay grade. 🤔
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    24 Jul '20 05:332 edits

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    @philokalia said
    I was not sure whether to put this in science or spirituality, but since it involves more meta than actual science, and because the Spirituality forum really needs less personal & drama-driven posts, I've decided to deposit it here.
    What are your thoughts on the article by O’Leary?
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    24 Jul '20 08:16
    @divegeester said
    What are your thoughts on the article by O’Leary?
    It was a great article. I think maybe she should have gotten the point of it a little more -- that is to say, to have known that the guy does not consider himself a Darwinist but also is not ready to say that he denies evolution.

    He simply is actively working to refuse Darwinist orthodoxy.

    I feel like... I might have a similar position. I would not say that I am a YEC or OEC at all, and I tend to believe in the concept of theistic evolution, but I am just all for questioning the unyielding consensus on this.
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    24 Jul '20 08:221 edit
    @philokalia said
    It was a great article. I think maybe she should have gotten the point of it a little more -- that is to say, to have known that the guy does not consider himself a Darwinist but also is not ready to say that he denies evolution.

    He simply is actively working to refuse Darwinist orthodoxy.

    I feel like... I might have a similar position. I would not say that I am a ...[text shortened]... e concept of theistic evolution, but I am just all for questioning the unyielding consensus on this.
    “Great article”.
    I thought It was a poorly written article about a very interesting topic.

    I’ve come away wondering what his point is, what the writer’s overarching objective is because at the root of the polarisation is the juxtaposition between two fundamentals; God created man or man created God.
  7. Standard memberSecondSon
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    24 Jul '20 10:38
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Well, it's not that I don't understand what was said, it's just that I'm ignorant of the machinations of academia and it's politics.

    I'm curious though. How do you know it was Philokalia that gave the thumbs up?
  8. Standard memberSecondSon
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    24 Jul '20 10:42
    @divegeester said
    God created man or man created God.
    I believe it's both.

    Man was created by God, and man invents new ones to suit his purpose.
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    24 Jul '20 11:09
    @secondson said
    I believe it's both.

    Man was created by God, and man invents new ones to suit his purpose.
    Given that man has the capacity to be highly devious does that mean that all of man's representations of God and God's word are likely to be corrupted and misrepresentations of the God that you believe created man? It is easy to see how that could happen if you consider the power that you might be given if you are credited with being the authority on what is wanted by God.
  10. Standard memberSecondSon
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    24 Jul '20 11:461 edit
    @petewxyz said
    Given that man has the capacity to be highly devious does that mean that all of man's representations of God and God's word are likely to be corrupted and misrepresentations of the God that you believe created man? It is easy to see how that could happen if you consider the power that you might be given if you are credited with being the authority on what is wanted by God.
    To your question; no, man being "devious" will not corrupt the Word of God because Jesus said not one jot or tittle will pass away. Man hasn't the power.

    To your statement concerning accreditation; man hasn't the authority to determine what is wanted by God.

    Therein lies the twist. When a man/men realizes that the sole authority rests in God's Word, then does man lose sight of himself, and is wholly dependent on the authority of scripture.

    Concerning authority, and man's responsibility with regards to what little he may have this passage comes to mind.

    2 Timothy 2:19-21
    Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
    If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    I don't believe a man should pursue authority, but opportunities to serve.

    And then there's this passage

    Titus 2:11-15
    For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
    These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

    I believe there is an authority granted to men, by God, relative to His church, but that authority is based in service.
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    24 Jul '20 21:56
    @secondson said
    I'm curious though. How do you know it was Philokalia that gave the thumbs up?
    I know things about pigeons, Lilly...
  12. Standard memberBigDogg
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    @philokalia
    In a world dominated by scientifically unproductive naturalism
    That is quite the sweeping claim.

    "Scientifically unproductive"? Seriously?

    I think that is a fairly ignorant statement to make, actually. Has the author not been paying attention to the history of science?
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    25 Jul '20 06:55
    @philokalia said
    It was a great article. I think maybe she should have gotten the point of it a little more -- that is to say, to have known that the guy does not consider himself a Darwinist but also is not ready to say that he denies evolution.

    He simply is actively working to refuse Darwinist orthodoxy.

    I feel like... I might have a similar position. I would not say that I am a ...[text shortened]... e concept of theistic evolution, but I am just all for questioning the unyielding consensus on this.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

    You say you "tend to believe in the concept of theistic evolution" but this is news to me. I've seen nothing in all of your writings here that even suggests that you "lean that way". I thought I was the only Christian in this forum whose thought process "leaned that way". In fact, I've ended up arguing this out with many other Christians in this forum, none of which "leaned that way".
  14. Standard memberSoothfast
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    25 Jul '20 07:281 edit
    @philokalia said
    I was not sure whether to put this in science or spirituality, but since it involves more meta than actual science, and because the Spirituality forum really needs less personal & drama-driven posts, I've decided to deposit it here.

    An article by Denyse O'Leary:

    J. Scott Turner of SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse, New York, ...[text shortened]...
    https://mercatornet.com/a-biologist-awakens-from-reductionism-and-begins-to-rediscover-life/22680/
    The basic problem, he contends, is that current biology requires us to view life forms as machines. Yet a key characteristic of life forms is the intention of remaining alive and purposeful activity toward that end. For Turner, homeostasis (the way a life form balances itself within an environment and all of its cells balance themselves within it in order to stay alive) is central to understanding life, but largely ignored.


    I'm not a biologist, but the "basic problem" mentioned here just does not on its face strike me as being a problem of any kind for the principle of reductionism. If he instead stated the basic problem as being one of how consciousness, or self-awareness, could arise as an emergent property of mindless chemical constructs, well, then I could discern an avenue for debate. But he's not saying that. I guess.

    EDIT: Reading parts over again, I suppose it's possible that self-awareness is indeed the bone of contention. If so, it should be stated more directly.

    Self-awareness is the greatest of mysteries, to me. It gives me a feeling, facilitated by my readings into Zen Buddhism, that all is Mind. But what is Mind? I do not know.
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    25 Jul '20 08:202 edits
    @suzianne said
    You say you "tend to believe in the concept of theistic evolution" but this is news to me. I've seen nothing in all of your writings here that even suggests that you "lean that way". I thought I was the only Christian in this forum whose thought process "leaned that way". In fact, I've ended up arguing this out with many other Christians in this forum, none of which "leaned that way"

    I’ve never seen you debate this perspective in the dozen or so years I’ve been here, and I pay pretty close attention.

    I would be interested in reading the threads please?
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