@sonship removed their quoted postAre you doubting that Paul said clearly that all men are justified? Yes it makes perfect sense, if you know what justification means. Justification is the process by which the sin inherited from Adam is cancelled, and the sin committed by the professed believer is wiped clean. That is justification. There is no eternal lire at this point. Paul addressed this over and over but you continue to twist it.
If you choose to twist it here and post volumes of nonsense I will just ignore you.
@rajk999 saidSo most are not saved and you disagree with what you claim Paul says.
I never said anything about who will be saved or not, whether it is most or all or some. Never said a word about that. The word 'saved' is very misleading and people use that word indiscriminately. Saved does not always mean eternal life. One needs to look at the context before applying a meaning.
When Jesus said most will not be saved he meant not given eternal life.
@eladar saidI mentioned that the word saved has several meanings.
So most are not saved and you disagree with what you claim Paul says.
What meaning are you using.
I wont be interested in a discussion with you unless you clear up what you mean.
Saved can mean eternal life
Saved can mean you got out of a diffuculty
Saved can mean cleansed of sin by the death of Christ
@rajk999 saidEither you are going to hell or you are saved.
I mentioned that the word saved has several meanings.
What meaning are you using.
I wont be interested in a discussion with you unless you clear up what you mean.
Saved can mean eternal life
Saved can mean you got out of a diffuculty
Saved can mean cleansed of sin by the death of Christ
Jesus says most people are going to hell.
@rajk999 saidHmm, Really?
In that sense you are using saved to mean eternal life. And thats fine just that it is not the way it is used most of the time in the bible. Yes I agree most will go to hell.
"the free gift of eternal life came upon ALL, the whole world, all are justified and saved by the death of Christ,"
You are now saying most will go to hell; well, I guess if you have to go to hell, being justified and saved by the death of Christ is an excellent way to go, according to you!?
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Rajk999:
Are you doubting that Paul said clearly that all men are justified?
Romans 5:1 says "Therefore having been justified out of faith, we have
peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
But Second Thess. 3:2 says "And that we may be delivered from
unreasonable and evil men, for faith does not belong to all."
Then some not having faith were not justified then. Perhaps latter they were.
Romans 5:6 says "For while we were yet weak, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."
That would mean He died for all, for all are ungodly as he has established in chapters 1 - 3.
So Christ indeed died for all. But "faith does not belong to all"
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Yes it makes perfect sense, if you know what justification means. Justification is the process by which the sin inherited from Adam is cancelled, and the sin committed by the professed believer is wiped clean. That is justification.
To the believer Justification is given. But though Christ died for all "faith does not belong to all" (2 Thess. 3:2) .
The free gift of this justification can be rejected. A free gift is not a forced gift.
There is no eternal lire at this point. Paul addressed this over and over but you continue to twist it.
There is eternal life in the spirit of man at regeneration. Being born of God is giving divine life to his spirit. The human spirit is regenerated be cause of righteousness, meaning he has been justified. That's why "the [human] spirit is life because of righteousness".
"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)
At least in the innermost part of our being justification has caused the innermost being to be enlivened "because of righteousness."
To have Christ is to have the eternal life.
" . . . God has given to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11,12)
The eternal life is in the Son of God. It is impossible to have the Son of God and not have the eternal life.
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Then it says we who have the Son may know that we have eternal life.
"I write these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (v.13)
Of course this eternal life must grow and be enjoyed in the soul and body. And eventually someday each who has received Christ will be "swallowed up by life" .
"For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:4)
In the meantime we who have been regenerated, whose spirit is life because of righteousness have a PLEDGE - the Holy Spirit, Christ in His other form within us as a foretaste.
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." (2 Cor. 5:5)
@kellyjay saidWell at least you are not trying to argue nonsense like sonship. So these points which are clearly stated in the bible remain :
Hmm, Really?
"the free gift of eternal life came upon ALL, the whole world, all are justified and saved by the death of Christ,"
You are now saying most will go to hell; well, I guess if you have to go to hell, being justified and saved by the death of Christ is an excellent way to go, according to you!?
1. Jesus did for the sins of the whole world and by this .. the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
2. Christians [who profess faith] are justified, and if they live righteously they get eternal life and they rule with Christ in the millenial age. These are Christ's sheep
3. All others [justified as well] who keep the commandments [as stated in Rev 22] are given eternal life in the New Jerusalem, at the end of the millenium.
4. All who live sinfully, [justified also, because Christ died for all] be it Christian or otherwise are punished with death and damnation.
Justification does not automatically give eternal life.
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1. Jesus did for the sins of the whole world and by this .. the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
A "free gift" is not a forced gift.
2. Christians [who profess faith] are justified, and if they live righteously they get eternal life and they rule with Christ in the millenial age.
All who have the Son have the life.
Not all who have the Son will be rewarded to reign with Christ in the millennium.
These are Christ's sheep
"Sheep" in the Bible takes on different meanings.
All the people created by God are also called "the sheep of His pasture"
"Know that it is Jehovah who has made us and not we ourselves.
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture." (Psa. 100:3)
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29 Dec 21
5 edits
3. All others [justified as well] who keep the commandments [as stated in Rev 22] are given eternal life in the New Jerusalem, at the end of the millenium.
Everyone who has the Son has eternal life.
The rewarded inherit the millennium in addition to the free gift.
Everyone who has the Son and eternal life may not inherit the reward of the millennial kingdom.
Of those in the church age who went on to be sanctified and obedient to the light that they had receive a reward. Those who took His grace for granted may "suffer loss" during the millennium yet still be saved unto eternity "yet so as through fire."
After the thousand years is completed ALL (the rewarded and those who suffered loss) together are all matured and receive equally the blessings of the eternal age of the new heaven and the new earth.
4. All who live sinfully, [justified also, because Christ died for all] be it Christian or otherwise are punished with death and damnation.
The unsanctified Christian who took grace for granted, according to the light that they had may not be rewarded during the thousand years. Some may be punished.
All who have the Son though have the eternal life. That is those who reigned 1,000 years as a reward and those who suffer loss yet are saved yet so as through fire.
Though Psalm 100:3 says all created are "the sheep of His pasture" some made themselves goats by following Antichrist who proclaimed that he was god.
Matt.25:31-41 is the judgment of the living at the time Christ returns at the BEGINNING of the millennium. The judgment of all the dead AFTER the millennium is the last judgment, "the great white throne" (Rev. 20:11) .
Justification does not automatically give eternal life.
Yes it does, "The spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom 8:10)
29 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidWhat being justified in Christ means, I think the scripture is clear.
Well at least you are not trying to argue nonsense like sonship. So these points which are clearly stated in the bible remain :
1. Jesus did for the sins of the whole world and by this .. the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
2. Christians [who profess faith] are justified, and if they live righteously they get eternal life and they rule ...[text shortened]... se are punished with death and damnation.
Justification does not automatically give eternal life.
Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Romans 5:1
Peace with God Through Faith
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are not justified by God in Christ so God can condemn us to hell. Sinners are justified, not the righteous, if anyone is righteous before God (there is none but Jesus) they would have no deed to be justified because they are already just.
30 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidNope, I'm just tired of being told I have nothing to contribute because I am a woman.
Actually since you were so concise in your point without trying to flood the conversation with nonsense I will respond to you.
This thread is about Paul's explanation on the purpose of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What was the purpose and who benefitted. So the references in the opening post tell a story, which many like you rather ignore because it would a ...[text shortened]... afraid your church doctrine will fail like a deck of cards? Im waiting and I have more ammunition.
Good luck with your "Gospel of Rajk".
30 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidClearly, the Gospel of Rajk says that it means whatever Rajk wants it to mean.
I mentioned that the word saved has several meanings.
What meaning are you using.
I wont be interested in a discussion with you unless you clear up what you mean.
Saved can mean eternal life
Saved can mean you got out of a diffuculty
Saved can mean cleansed of sin by the death of Christ