A question of honesty

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]Food would be unsatisfying, drink wouldn't taste of anything, that kind of thing.

Not according to what I've read. But here again, we're supposedly weighing what the Bible says against what our imaginations are telling us. There's no reason we shouldn't imagine food or drink being more satisfying or tasty. To my way of thinking, [i]more[/ ...[text shortened]... deavor, seeing as how there is no way to prove any of this until we die and see for ourselves...[/b]

My statements about heaven and hell are not scripturally motivated, except in the general sense that it's part of the culture I live in. Don't latch on to the food and drink example too strongly, I was just trying to distinguish the reality and awareness of the damned conscious entity that wakes up from how substantial it's surroundings are in Hell.

I agree with your last sentence, this is pure metaphysics.

Originally posted by bbarr
Here's hoping the questions below are coherent!

As I mentioned before, I like the dream analogy. It tracks some important Scriptural passages (i.e. in Timothy, where is it claimed that with salvation comes knowledge of the truth). From what you've said elsewhere in this thread, you're positing that the damned will similarly be 'awakened'.

I worry, thou ...[text shortened]... k of faith of, essentially, some different, previous person.

Do these questions make sense?

Your questions make sense but I'll need to look at them one a time, and hopefully I won't feel the need to hurry through any of them. It's possible they all have something in common and one answer might suffice, but right now my wee little brain is getting tired.

I'm not trying to give the impression here that I know all about this, or understand it more than I do. But right now I need a break, and maybe vegetate in front the TV for a while.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Your questions make sense but I'll need to look at them one a time, and hopefully I won't feel the need to hurry through any of them. It's possible they all have something in common and one answer might suffice, but right now my wee little brain is getting tired.

I'm not trying to give the impression here that I know all about this, or understand it more than I do. But right now I need a break, and maybe vegetate in front the TV for a while.

I totally understand. This isn't an interrogation, we are just working through an interesting view.

Originally posted by FMF
Are you willing to have a crack at answering bbar's questions?

I was simply helping him with the question of honesty in belief. You apparently are already satisfied you know the answer. I am content to leave his specific questions in the hands of lemon lime to answer. 😏

Originally posted by bbarr
Here's hoping the questions below are coherent!

As I mentioned before, I like the dream analogy. It tracks some important Scriptural passages (i.e. in Timothy, where is it claimed that with salvation comes knowledge of the truth). From what you've said elsewhere in this thread, you're positing that the damned will similarly be 'awakened'.

I worry, thou ...[text shortened]... k of faith of, essentially, some different, previous person.

Do these questions make sense?

Well, I'm back already... darn it. I couldn't stop thinking about this, so the mentally relaxing vegetation mode will have to wait... darn it.

I worry, though, about how much salvation/damnation can change us psychologically without our becoming essentially different people. There are really tough questions about personal identity lurking right underneath this account of yours, and I'm curious what you think.

I don't believe who we essentially are will change at all. Our circumstances will change but we will be the same person in every respect, with the exception of the physical body left behind. Even so I don't think we will see or think of ourselves as being body-less. We won't forget about anyone we know, but at the same time I think we'll be so preoccupied with our surroundings that it won't matter... a heightened sense of awareness can do that.

I believe that part of what makes me this person that I am is that I have a a particular set of deeply held beliefs, character traits, values, memories and relationships. These psychological properties of me both distinguish me from others and are the basis of the claim that, for instance, I'm the same person now I was last week, last year, etc.

Okay. I would add to this that we are not only what we think, but we are also what we do... and the doing part may have more relevance there than it does here. The idea of "storing up treasure in heaven" appears to be directly linked to what we say and do here.

But if, upon my awakening in Heaven or Hell, much of this just fades away like a dream, then I wonder if it makes sense to say that's it's actually me who ends up in Heaven in Hell. Think of how much you're different in your waking life than in your dream life...

The memory might fade, but since I am the one dreaming then I don't make a big distinction between the me in my dreams and the me I wake up to. The dream analogy is at best a rough analogy. What is happening in my head (the dream) isn't really happening, and so the difference between this analogy and what I think will happen is that we will all leave our homes (our bodies) and go to live somewhere else.

The thing is, your belief system absolutely requires that personal identity be maintained in the afterlife. If it wasn't; if the person who wakes up in Heaven or Hell is not the substantially the same person they were on Earth, then both Heaven and Hell would be a form of death.

I'm following you so far, except for the part where you believe both Heaven and Hell would be a form of death. Your physical body (with the nose hairs needing an occasional trimming) is dead. Spiritual death is something I can't explain or envision, so I'll leave that question for someone else to answer.

The original person wouldn't really be around anymore. Further, Hell in particular would seem perversely unjust, since some person would end up eternally tormented for the misdeeds or lack of faith of, essentially, some different, previous person.

Wow, that would be unjust! And since it would be unjust, then I believe I can safely assume I wouldn't be able to avoid Hell because someone else who used to be me is there, but it's not really me. As convenient as that sounds, I think the original (and not an imitation or to be confused with someone else) me will end up being in one of those two places.

You know who you are... LOL ... And you'll know who you are in heaven... or that other place I don't like to think about.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I was simply helping him with the question of honesty in belief. You apparently are already satisfied you know the answer. I am content to leave his specific questions in the hands of lemon lime to answer. 😏

I am content to leave his specific questions in the hands of lemon lime to answer.

Say what?!

Okay, I've answered his questions but now I want to vegetate for awhile. And maybe even for the rest of my life! I don't care who answers who, my wee little pea brain needs a break. 😛

Originally posted by lemon lime
Well, I'm back already... darn it. I couldn't stop thinking about this, so the mentally relaxing vegetation mode will have to wait... darn it.

[b]I worry, though, about how much salvation/damnation can change us psychologically without our becoming essentially different people. There are really tough questions about personal identity lurking right und ...[text shortened]... OL ... And you'll know who you are in heaven... or that other place I don't like to think about.

Do you distinguish between soul and mind as people sometimes do?

-Removed-

It was only an analogy, I thought I made that clear. It's not possible for me to address the actual 'mechanics' of how God does what he does... no one can. So if it seems comical to you then it's only because you think that's what I've been doing. It would be arrogant for me or you or anyone else to think they can know the mind of God and understand how he does what he does.

As to your understanding of what God will or will not do, and how some of it appears to offend your sensibilities, I can't really address that either except to say perhaps your understanding of his grand design is as limited as mine. There are simply some things we cannot understand and won't know until it's finally revealed to us... and according to scripture it will be revealed.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Do you distinguish between soul and mind as people sometimes do?

That depends on what you mean by 'mind'. If mind means conscious awareness then I don't see much of a difference, seeing as how we will be consciously aware of what is happening.

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]I am content to leave his specific questions in the hands of lemon lime to answer.

Say what?!

Okay, I've answered his questions but now I want to vegetate for awhile. And maybe even for the rest of my life! I don't care who answers who, my wee little pea brain needs a break. 😛[/b]

Just blowing off some steam, and having a bit of fun... if this was no fun at all I wouldn't bother with any of it. 😀

-Removed-

The fact remains that Christians (such as yourself), believe in the doctrine of eternal suffering, the mechanics of which is that unbelievers will be kept alive in a burning lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity.

You've never seen me say that, so lumping me together with everyone you disagree with is by definition dishonest. This is your thread, and you entitled it "A question of honesty".

Furthermore while this mechanic is occurring the relatives of those in the lake of fire will be in heaven knowing their relatives are in the fiery lake.

And how do you know this? Did God reveal this to you? How do you presume to know what someones relatives in heaven are thinking?

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't believe who we essentially are will change at all. Our circumstances will change but we will be the same person in every respect, with the exception of the physical body left behind.

The biggest problem I have with that, is that it fails to deal with time. I am not an unchanging entity. Who I was at age 5 is not who I am now. More importantly, who I will be when I die, will probably be quite different from who I am now. If I am lucky enough to grow to old age, I may end up with dementia or some other disease that significantly affects my brain and personality, memories etc.
Now if you reject the continuation of the dying brain into the afterlife, then you are forced to take one of these options:
1. Pick some point prior to death to take the continuation from. But then the question is 'which point?'. Your 5 year old self? Your 50 year old self?
2. Make some 'repairs' to the dying brain by bringing back selected memories, brain functionality etc. Here the question is what memories, and which functionality, and whether the resulting conglomerate is still really you.
Whatever the case, I personally do not feel all that strongly attached to whatever entity that would be. Just as I am not all that concerned about what might happen to my 5 year old self.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The biggest problem I have with that, is that it fails to deal with time. I am not an unchanging entity. Who I was at age 5 is not who I am now. More importantly, who I will be when I die, will probably be quite different from who I am now. If I am lucky enough to grow to old age, I may end up with dementia or some other disease that significantly affects ...[text shortened]... hat would be. Just as I am not all that concerned about what might happen to my 5 year old self.

The biggest problem I have with that, is that it fails to deal with time.

I'm not surprised this would be problem for you, because we had a discussion once (at the science forum) about a point in time (a starting point) when we were talking about the big bang. You kept telling me there was no starting point in space, and I couldn't seem to get you to understand I was talking about a starting point in time... not space. But this isn't the science forum, so I won't be examining topics here (at this forum) in strictly scientific terms.

And by the way, there must have been a starting point in time, because if there was no starting point then how are we able to determine the age of the universe? From where would we begin counting?