The "Troubles" Debate Thread

@shavixmir said
Yah... I think that’s pretty much 99% of the issue...

If you launch an insurgence when your roughly half the population of any given legally defined entity your essentially launching a civil war so certainly the label of insurgent is not applicable.
Iraq after the invasion by Bush jnr and his coalition of the willing witnessed an ongoing insurgency but N.I is a lot more complex in its history and civil make up.

@shavixmir said
Yah... I think that’s pretty much 99% of the issue...

Well yeah legal civil authorities tend to be an issue for terrorist organisations especially when half the population eagerly acquiesce to that authority.

@kevcvs57 said
Why don’t you ask No1? I’d be interested in the answer, it’s not me making a special defence for PIRA.
I’ll give you a clue though. The British did not invade or occupy N.I they were and are the legal civil authority.

I already answered that, but like almost every one of my points, you've ignored it.

EDIT: In case you didn't bother to read my first post on page 6:

no1: What definition of "terrorist" are you using?

I prefer the one where the group so designated actually targets civilians with intent to kill them. AQ was such a group; OBL specifically declared that he believed civilians in "Crusader" nations were legitimate targets of war.

The Loyalist paramilitaries might not have made such an open declaration, but their tactics made no doubt they targeted civilians and 80% of those killed by them were civilians.

By contrast, IRA policy was not to target civilians.

And further down that page:

"I dispute the IRA had any policy nor practice that targeted civilians with intent to kill them. The evidence supports that claim."

No one has presented evidence to the contrary, you have just tried to change the definition of "terrorism" in a way that would make every army a "terrorist" one except you than arbitrarily exclude "armies" that are from nations and are wearing the proper costume. Needless to say, I dispute that insurgents (like the Viet Cong or the PLO) are "terrorists" by definition if they engage in practices that are accepted under traditional rules of war.

@kevcvs57 said
Why don’t you ask No1? I’d be interested in the answer, it’s not me making a special defence for PIRA.
I’ll give you a clue though. The British did not invade or occupy N.I they were and are the legal civil authority.

The British invaded Ireland hundreds of years ago and have occupied it ever since. Any claim to be "legal civil authority" vanishes when you engage in oppression and tyranny.

Are you also claiming the Irish Rebellion that freed the 26 Counties was nothing but the work of "terrorists"? If not, rather than screaming "terrorists, terrorists, terrorists!" over and over and over again give some cogent reasons why it was justified and the resistance after 1969 wasn't.

@no1marauder said
The British invaded Ireland hundreds of years ago and have occupied it ever since. Any claim to be "legal civil authority" vanishes when you engage in oppression and tyranny.

Are you also claiming the Irish Rebellion that freed the 26 Counties was nothing but the work of "terrorists"? If not, rather than screaming "terrorists, terrorists, terrorists!" over and over and over again give some cogent reasons why it was justified and the resistance after 1969 wasn't.

Your dramatic choice of words does not change its legal status negotiated with the Dublin government that won the 26 counties.
If you want to compare PIRA to the soldiers who fought the British to a standstill by taking up their positions and fighting to the death during the Easter Rising and it’s aftermath you can but you won’t find me doing any such thing.

@kevcvs57 said
Your dramatic choice of words does not change its legal status negotiated with the Dublin government that won the 26 counties.
If you want to compare PIRA to the soldiers who fought the British to a standstill by taking up their positions and fighting to the death during the Easter Rising and it’s aftermath you can but you won’t find me doing any such thing.

The Easter Rising failed. Its leaders were executed (some of them weren't really "leaders" but whatever).

How do you think the campaign in 1919-22 was conducted? Virtually identical to the one from 1969 on.

The Republic's 1937 Constitution claimed all of Ireland:

"ARTICLE 2
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. " https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Ireland_2012.pdf

Even if it didn't, the People in the Six Counties have an individual Right to resist oppression and tyranny by force if necessary that no agreement between nations can deprive them of.

You really should learn the basic history.

@no1marauder said
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.

A claim arguably now satisfied by the fact that anyone born in Northern Ireland before 2005, or since 2005 to either Irish or British parents, or to parents of other nationalities if the latter can demonstrate that they reside there, is automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.

@teinosuke said
A claim arguably now satisfied by the fact that anyone born in Northern Ireland before 2005, or since 2005 to either Irish or British parents, or to parents of other nationalities if the latter can demonstrate that they reside there, is automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.

It's moot anyway since the Article 2 language was substantially revised as required by the Good Friday Agreement.

I mentioned it only as a retort to Kev's claim that Ireland had recognized Brit territorial claims to the Six Counties after 1922.

@no1marauder said
The Easter Rising failed. Its leaders were executed (some of them weren't really "leaders" but whatever).

How do you think the campaign in 1919-22 was conducted? Virtually identical to the one from 1969 on.

The Republic's 1937 Constitution claimed all of Ireland:

"ARTICLE 2
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, whi ...[text shortened]... that no agreement between nations can deprive them of.

You really should learn the basic history.

Im pretty sure they had pitch battles with British regulars in a conventional sense I’m pretty sure they also caused the British to abandon isolated barracks after sustained mass attacks thus forcing the British back to the urban areas in a classic guerrilla style battle for territory which they won.
There were atrocities committed on both sides but essentially it was a war for territory and military dominance and thus nothing like the Troubles in terms of PIRAs tactics and realistic chances of a military victory.
As for citizenship, a citizen of the Irish Republic has free movement to the Uk preceding free movement via the EU and that right will survive the rescinding of that agreement. They are required to stay resident for five years before registering for automatic British citizenship.

@kevcvs57 said
Im pretty sure they had pitch battles with British regulars in a conventional sense I’m pretty sure they also caused the British to abandon isolated barracks after sustained mass attacks thus forcing the British back to the urban areas in a classic guerrilla style battle for territory which they won.
There were atrocities committed on both sides but essentially it was a war ...[text shortened]... y are required to stay resident for five years before registering for automatic British citizenship.

I'll easily correct your misconceptions about the tactics used in each insurgency; there was little difference and the IRA 100 years ago had no illusions it could militarily defeat the armed might of the British Empire.

Don't have time right now to provide links.

@kevcvs57 said
Im pretty sure they had pitch battles with British regulars in a conventional sense I’m pretty sure they also caused the British to abandon isolated barracks after sustained mass attacks thus forcing the British back to the urban areas in a classic guerrilla style battle for territory which they won.
There were atrocities committed on both sides but essentially it was a war ...[text shortened]... y are required to stay resident for five years before registering for automatic British citizenship.

"When Éamon de Valera returned from the United States, he demanded in the Dáil that the IRA desist from the ambushes and assassinations, which were allowing the British to portray it as a terrorist group and to take on the British forces with conventional military methods. The proposal was immediately dismissed.

"The biggest single loss for the IRA, however, came in Dublin. On 25 May 1921, several hundred IRA men from the Dublin Brigade occupied and burned the Custom House (the centre of local government in Ireland) in Dublin city centre. Symbolically, this was intended to show that British rule in Ireland was untenable. However, from a military point of view, it was a heavy defeat in which five IRA men were killed and over eighty captured.[102] This showed the IRA was not well enough equipped or trained to take on British forces in a conventional manner. "

"By the time of the truce, however, many republican leaders, including Michael Collins, were convinced that if the war went on for much longer, there was a chance that the IRA campaign as it was then organised could be brought to a standstill. Because of this, plans were drawn up to "bring the war to England". The IRA did take the campaign to the streets of Glasgow.[106] It was decided that key economic targets, such as the Liverpool docks, would be bombed. The units charged with these missions would more easily evade capture because England was not under, and British public opinion was unlikely to accept, martial law. These plans were abandoned because of the truce."

While the death toll in the three year War for Independence was not as high in the 25+ years of the Troubles, of approximately 2000 deaths, 750 were civilians.

All cites and figures from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_War_of_Independence#Casualties

@no1marauder said
"When Éamon de Valera returned from the United States, he demanded in the Dáil that the IRA desist from the ambushes and assassinations, which were allowing the British to portray it as a terrorist group and to take on the British forces with conventional military methods. The proposal was immediately dismissed.

"The biggest single loss for the IRA, however, cam ...[text shortened]... s.

All cites and figures from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_War_of_Independence#Casualties

I take your points but are you claiming from this that the PIRA ‘Terrorist’ campaign had a similar impact on the British Military as the Guerrilla campaign during the “1919 - 1921 Anglo - Irish War”(AIW)
Also there is no comparison in terms of the political mandate given to the IRA during the AIW and that given to PIRA during the Troubles.
“ In the December 1918 election, the republican party Sinn Féin won a landslide victory in Ireland. ([24] In the 1918 general election Irish voters showed their disapproval of British policy by giving Sinn Féin 70% (73 seats out of 105,) of Irish seats, 25 of these uncontested.[25][26] Sinn Féin won 91% of the seats outside of Ulster)
On 21 January 1919 they formed a breakaway government (Dáil Éireann) and declared Irish independence.” note they formed a government based on a clear political mandate and PIRAs political wing could do no such thing in N.I because over half the population was ostensibly Loyalist rather than Republican although it was by no means a clean division and some in loyalist areas supported reunification and some in republican areas opposed it but for political purposes N.I was roughly equally split
The IRA that fought the British Army and local loyalist militias during the AIW bares no semblance to PIRA in terms of the scale and conventional nature of their attacks. The main tactic appeared to be the classic guerrilla ambush and small unit attacks which drove British Security forces out of their rural isolated bases giving the IRA freedom of movement and logistical control of much of the countryside, again, nothing like this ever happened during the Troubles.
“ The biggest single loss for the IRA, however, came in Dublin. On 25 May 1921, several hundred IRA men from the Dublin Brigade occupied and burned the Custom House (the centre of local government in Ireland) in Dublin city centre. Symbolically, this was intended to show that British rule in Ireland was untenable. ”
The fact that the IRA of the AIW could or would attempt a conventional military operation of this scale puts them in a different league. After three years they managed to force the British to concede 26 of Ireland’s 32 counties.
“ While the death toll in the three year War for Independence was not as high in the 25+ years of the Troubles, of approximately 2000 deaths, 750 were civilians.“
If this figure is scaled up to the 25yr equivalent you get a death toll of about 16000 deaths which illustrates the difference in scale and intensity of the IRAs guerrilla tactics of ambush and small to medium scale conventional operations compared to PIRA’s terrorist tactics of a bombing and sniping campaign during the Troubles.
Of course it’s easy to correct ‘misconceptions’ when you employ misconceptions to do it.

@kevcvs57 said
I take your points but are you claiming from this that the PIRA ‘Terrorist’ campaign had a similar impact on the British Military as the Guerrilla campaign during the “1919 - 1921 Anglo - Irish War”(AIW)
Also there is no comparison in terms of the political mandate given to the IRA during the AIW and that given to PIRA during the Troubles.
“ In the December 1918 electio ...[text shortened]... Troubles.
Of course it’s easy to correct ‘misconceptions’ when you employ misconceptions to do it.

Your doubling down on ignorance is rather disturbing. Most attacks in the Troubles campaign were shooting incidents against British security forces and/or paramilitaries as I have already shown. The IRA in 1922 was perfectly willing to conduct a bombing campaign in England itself as I have shown. You've abysmally failed to show any real difference between the tactics in the campaigns because there wasn't one.

750 civilians killed in three years multiplied by the 25 years of the Troubles would dwarf the civilian losses in the latter which were only 1800. Thus, the 1919-21 was far deadly to noncombatants.

I fail to see any relevance to the level of political support in elections. As already stated, an oppressed and tyrannized minority under attack for demanding their rights, does not have to meekly submit and may justifiably respond with force.

EDIT: On rereading your post, you seem to be saying that the IRA had militarily driven the British from the 26 Counties by 1921. While that would have been nice, it in no way equates to the realities of the situation; the IRA knew it could not win militarily and its goal was typical of insurgent campaigns - to inflict enough losses and pain on the Empire to force it to accede to ending its oppression and tyranny by granting Ireland independence. In that, they did not fully succeed.

@no1marauder said
Your doubling down on ignorance is rather disturbing. Most attacks in the Troubles campaign were shooting incidents against British security forces and/or paramilitaries as I have already shown. The IRA in 1922 was perfectly willing to conduct a bombing campaign in England itself as I have shown. You've abysmally failed to show any real difference between the tactics in t ...[text shortened]... ng its oppression and tyranny by granting Ireland independence. In that, they did not fully succeed.

Well you’ve proved your prepared to be all kinds of ridiculous in your attempt to equate the tactics and realistic goals of the IRA during the AIW with the politics based terrorist campaign waged by PIRA.
The giveaway is that your using the same wiki pages as me, and literally anyone including me can tell the storyline they prefer. However anyone who is prepared to read the relevant pages concerning both episodes in full will not come to the conclusion that you appear to have arrived at.

YouTube : Foggy Dew

As down the glen one Easter morn
To a city fair rode I
There armed lines of marching men
In squadrons passed me by
No fife did hum, no battle drum
Did sound its dred tattoo
But the Angelus bells o'er the Liffey's swell
Rang out through the foggy dew
Right proudly high over Dublin town
They hung out the flag of war
'Twas better to die 'neath an Irish sky
Than at Suvla or Sud el Bar
And from the plains of Royal Meath
Strong men came hurrying through
While Brittania's huns with their long-range guns
Sailed in through the foggy dew