The "Troubles" Debate Thread

@no1marauder said
I'm not here to tell people in other countries what strategies they should adopt to resist oppression.

I do not believe the majority in the Six Counties should alone decide whether that part of Ireland is joined with the rest; that should be the choice of all the People on Eire.

Try convincing Dublin of that. Good luck.

@no1marauder said
It is unfortunate that civilians were killed by the IRA in the just war that the UK forced upon them, yes.

‘Just war’ my rear end, soldiers fight wars terrorists fight terror campaigns, your dishonest use of language on this subject is staggering.

@no1marauder said
I grasp that the People, particularly the Catholics, in the Six Counties were oppressed and deprived of their basic Rights. I grasp that when they rose in peaceful protest against this tyranny, the government forces and their henchmen brutally and murderously suppressed them. I grasp that it is the right of the oppressed in such circumstances to resist by force of arms. A ...[text shortened]... y thought there would be some attempt at rational refutation of my position, but I've yet to see it.

Yeah your being flowery to point of being economical with the truth again. Provo Bar room propaganda never has mirrored the reality on the ground.
They demonstrated peacefully against the sectarian bigotry they suffered at the hands of the Protestant hegemony not against the British State as such and it remained reasonably peaceful until the inter communal rioting threatened to turn into civil war.
The British Army were deployed initially to protect Catholic families from being burned out by their Protestant neighbours.
PIRA formed during this time but we’re lacking the support and volunteers needed to mount and effective terrorist campaign. It wasn’t until someone had the bright idea of using Paratroopers to police a riot and Bloody Sunday happened that PIRAs fortunes changed. A cynic might give credence to the claim that they were in the crowd and were firing weapons for that very reason but of course they deny that and there’s no real evidence for it.

@no1marauder said
I grasp that the People, particularly the Catholics, in the Six Counties were oppressed and deprived of their basic Rights. I grasp that when they rose in peaceful protest against this tyranny, the government forces and their henchmen brutally and murderously suppressed them. I grasp that it is the right of the oppressed in such circumstances to resist by force of arms. A ...[text shortened]... y thought there would be some attempt at rational refutation of my position, but I've yet to see it.

“ really thought there would be some attempt at rational refutation of my position, but I've yet to see it“
That’s because you cannot afford to see it, you’ve only proved yourself to be as fanatical and blind to the innocent civilian blood on their hands as the terrorists you are defending for your own narrow nationalist reasons.
So far you’ve presented zero coherent arguments as to why PIRA should be treated differently to any other terrorist group other than you passionately support their stated aims. Unfortunately for your argument all terrorist groups have aims that tend to be passionately supported by definition.
Their still designated terrorist’s though.

@kevcvs57 said
No you and your drinking pals at the Irish Bar an ocean away from any repercussions have somehow managed to convince yourselves that civilians killed by the PIRA terrorists are to be ignored. The reasons for your callous attitude to the murder of innocent men women and children are known only to you and your cohorts.
PIRA did not declare war in the British Army, they decla ...[text shortened]... n as a call for what we would describe as ethnic cleansing on account of that’s who they were / are.

I'm not going to keep responding to most of your posting because it is just hysterical screeching not at all responding to any of the points raised. You have been deeply brainwashed and show no capability for rationally assessing the facts regarding the history of the Troubles. Moreover, your constant personalization of the matter is inconducive to reasoned discussion.

I will respond to this, howver:

Kev: It is worth noting that PIRAs cry of ‘Brits Out’ was viewed by some sectors of the 1000,000 loyalist population as a call for what we would describe as ethnic cleansing on account of that’s who they were / are.

There has never been support for any type of "ethnic cleansing" of Loyalists in the Six Counties among the Republican cause. Nor is their any evidence that Protestants have suffered the extreme oppression and discrimination in the Republic that Catholics did (and to some extent still do) in the Six Counties. That Loyalist extremists make such a claim to support their unjust policies is fear mongering that you seem to have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

The fact is Protestants would lose nothing in a United Ireland.

@no1marauder said
I'm not going to keep responding to most of your posting because it is just hysterical screeching not at all responding to any of the points raised. You have been deeply brainwashed and show no capability for rationally assessing the facts regarding the history of the Troubles. Moreover, your constant personalization of the matter is inconducive to reasoned discussion.
...[text shortened]... pport their unjust policies is fear mongering that you seem to have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

There are multiple examples of the difference in mentality between the protestant militias and the catholic paramilitaries.

One, for example, is to look st the difference in wall art:
https://i2-prod.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/article4320817.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200b/Ardoyne-mural.jpg

https://img.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2915989604_f93797359d_b.jpg

The first one is Republican. The second is Unionist.

There’s obviously a great many differences, besides the wall art.
Many of the protestants vote conservative.
Many of the catholics vote Sinn Féin, which is a socialist party.

@kevcvs57 said
Yeah your being flowery to point of being economical with the truth again. Provo Bar room propaganda never has mirrored the reality on the ground.
They demonstrated peacefully against the sectarian bigotry they suffered at the hands of the Protestant hegemony not against the British State as such and it remained reasonably peaceful until the inter communal rioting threatene ...[text shortened]... iring weapons for that very reason but of course they deny that and there’s no real evidence for it.

I suppose you missed or simply ignored my posts on page 6 which showed the British security forces created, supplied and give intelligence to the largest Loyalist paramilitary force in their murder campaign against Catholic civilians.

I suppose you missed or simply ignored my post showing that the UK government knew that by sending troops they were taking sides with the Protestants, who were the ones doing the violence. I'm sure you missed the part where the Brit army quickly starting imposing curfews, arresting people and detaining them without trial and engaging in raids of the Catholic community which resulted in deaths.

Your "cynic" is probably you believing a false narrative (one the UK government pushed for about 40 years) but if you look at my first post on page 7 you'll find the (belated) official report on Bloody Sunday. Its conclusion:

""British paratroopers on that day had no reason to believe they were under threat from the victims, gave no warnings before firing, and lied to the far-reaching official inquiry into the seminal event, the inquiry concluded."

https://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/06/15/uk.bloody.sunday.inquiry/index.html

@shavixmir said
There are multiple examples of the difference in mentality between the protestant militias and the catholic paramilitaries.

One, for example, is to look st the difference in wall art:
https://i2-prod.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/article4320817.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200b/Ardoyne-mural.jpg

https://img.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2915989604_f9379 ...[text shortened]... he protestants vote conservative.
Many of the catholics vote Sinn Féin, which is a socialist party.

I like "our" stuff better; more colorful.

Do you know who the UDU and UDA member depicted in the Loyalist mural are?

@no1marauder said
I'm not going to keep responding to most of your posting because it is just hysterical screeching not at all responding to any of the points raised. You have been deeply brainwashed and show no capability for rationally assessing the facts regarding the history of the Troubles. Moreover, your constant personalization of the matter is inconducive to reasoned discussion.
...[text shortened]... pport their unjust policies is fear mongering that you seem to have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Cite one example of “hysterical screeching“. I’ve tried to illuminate the complex reality of the Troubles against your turgid one sided and overly romanticised propaganda driven view of who and what PIRA was.
This argument is not about the right or wrongs of unification I’m as big a fan of that goal as anyone including yourself. This is about using terrorist tactics to achieve that goal.
I would submit the reason your not going to keep responding to most of my posting is because I’ve been posting facts; and romanticised propaganda about an organisation that would, literally drag a mother away from her home in the Divis flats murder her and then bury her in an unmarked grave leaving her there for decades finally to be found by chance, doesn’t really constitute a rebuttal does it.

@no1marauder said
I like "our" stuff better; more colorful.

Do you know who the UDU and UDA member depicted in the Loyalist mural are?

No.
The one on the left looks like Baden Powell.
The one on the right looks like someone in an Afrika Korps uniform.

Who are they?

@no1marauder said
I suppose you missed or simply ignored my posts on page 6 which showed the British security forces created, supplied and give intelligence to the largest Loyalist paramilitary force in their murder campaign against Catholic civilians.

I suppose you missed or simply ignored my post showing that the UK government knew that by sending troops they were taking sides with th ...[text shortened]... quiry concluded."

https://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/06/15/uk.bloody.sunday.inquiry/index.html

No Not at all I saw a lot of grand claims, hearsay and assumptions in your posts on this subject but very little evidence that PIRA were not by their actions carrying out a terrorist campaign or have you forgotten your initial stated aim of proving that PIRA were not a terrorist organisation and are now settling for a Brit bashing thread.
I think you’ll find that they also colluded with nationalist terrorist groups as well, just the same as the Garda colluded with PIRA in covering up their murders of civilians. Once you begin a terrorist campaign you create the environment for some very murky dealings on all sides.
I’ve told you the history of the origins of the troubles which you’ve obviously ignored. The British didn’t have to send troops to NI any more than the US would have to send to troops Texas because they were already there just as they are in Colchester and Aldershot. This fantastical invasion story your trying to weave appears ridiculous to people like myself who watched the troubles unfold in real time, it simply shows your complete ignorance of the actual events. What began as a peaceful and justified civil rights movement against systemic anti catholic bigotry in the late sixties was seized upon and manipulated by men of violence on both sides to the point of civil war and at that point the British Government sent in extra troops to stifle the conflict. The Loyalist terrorist were no more happy about that than Nationalist ones, in fact it served PIRAs ends better than anyone’s.
“ ""British paratroopers on that day had no reason to believe they were under threat from the victims, gave no warnings before firing, and lied to the far-reaching official inquiry into the seminal event, the inquiry concluded.".
Not sure who you think has been defending the actions of individual members of the Parachute Regiment on Bloody Sunday, I don’t think they should have been anywhere near a rioting civilian population in the first place. clearly you haven’t bothered to read my posts on the subject, but lumping the whole of the British Army into that category won’t wash with me even if it suits your PIRA apologist mind set.
I have never claimed that the British State and it’s Army came out of the Troubles with any glory but if you could remember that almost all terrorists have just causes and all of them rely on heavy handed over reactions by the conventional forces that oppose them we might be able to drag the debate away from your rose tinted view of PIRA
And what about the treatment of the Catholic Nationalist community whose members were beaten, shot, vanquished and ultimately murdered by PIRAs ‘Administration’ squads? Who do think they saw as the blood soaked oppressors of their community?
Any atrocities committed by the Army are well documented but some relatives are still looking for the bodies of PIRAs victims and even to this day they are only taking responsibility for those acts that the evidence compels them to confront.
I hesitate to accuse anyone of dishonesty in these forums but I find the blind naivety that you display when it comes to PIRA and their terrorist activities suspiciously unfathomable.
When you said you were not going to answer my post I never thought you’d take it this far.
I take it your not going to address any of the murders of civilians committed by PIRA in and out-with their host community.
You haven’t even begun to prove that a PIRA were not a terrorist organisation all your doing is highlighting how badly governments respond to terrorist campaigns as if nobody knew that.

@no1marauder said
I like "our" stuff better; more colorful.

Do you know who the UDU and UDA member depicted in the Loyalist mural are?

Yeah their terrorist scum like your friends in PIRA but they haven’t got an armchair urban warrior to give them a pass.

@kevcvs57 said
Yeah their terrorist scum like your friends in PIRA but they haven’t got an armchair urban warrior to give them a pass.

What’s the difference between a terrorist, an insurgent, a rebel and a resistence member?

@shavixmir said
What’s the difference between a terrorist, an insurgent, a rebel and a resistence member?

Why don’t you ask No1? I’d be interested in the answer, it’s not me making a special defence for PIRA.
I’ll give you a clue though. The British did not invade or occupy N.I they were and are the legal civil authority.

@kevcvs57 said
Why don’t you ask No1? I’d be interested in the answer, it’s not me making a special defence for PIRA.
I’ll give you a clue though. The British did not invade or occupy N.I they were and are the legal civil authority.

Yah... I think that’s pretty much 99% of the issue...