Originally posted by @josephwAgain, you have the wrong end of the stick. I'd be happy for you to make the issues of faith and free will the centre of attention. That is what the OP is about.
Sorry if my reply doesn't put you at the center of attention.
Does your free will enable you to stop believing in Jesus if you want to? I wasn't able to. I did not have the free will to be able to do that. I think faith overrides free will. I think faith holds believers in its grip and that the benefits that flow from this make it basically impossible to decide to unbelieve it.
The fact that I lost my faith or that you still have yours is not intended to be the centre of attention. Because we are talking about faith in supernatural things, I don't think you have the free will to decide to stop being a Christian in the same way as even strong free will on my part would not enable me to decide to become a Christian or a Muslim.
01 Sep 17
Originally posted by @suzianneIt's not FMF"s fault Suzy. After all, he had no choice. 😛
And I don't need to come back later, or even give this another wasted millisecond of thought, to understand that this is just another Christian-attacking thread, just like all the others we've seen too much of from you over the years. At least you are consistent.
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I think there is a lot of point missing going on in here, primarily driven by a historical dislike of FMF. There is a good discussion point that is being largely missed, overlooked or possibly ignored.
I have said on many occasions in here and irl, that I cannot not believe. I believe that I have a god given faith which upholds me and maintains my belief in Christ. Many of you will believe the same I'm sure, so how is this so much different from what FMF is describing in his OP?
I think we should all give FMF the opportunity to be open and honest and explore what it is he is sharing.
01 Sep 17
Originally posted by @divegeesterWhat is he sharing?
I think there is a lot of point missing going on in here, primarily driven by a historical dislike of FMF. There is a good discussion point that is being largely missed, overlooked or possibly ignored.
I have said on many occasions in here and irl, that I cannot not believe. I believe that I have a god given faith which upholds me and maintains my ...[text shortened]... should all give FMF the opportunity to be open and honest and explore what it is he is sharing.
It's likely that FMF's 'point' is getting missed because his OP and subsequent posts are confusing.
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Originally posted by @fmfBorrowing your own method for a moment with a few alterations -
Yes, I suppose I was, in a sense, "forced" to be a Christian for those 25+ years. The word "forced" is maybe not the first word I'd have thought of using, but it will suffice.
Yes, I was, for all intents and purposes, "forced" to be a Christian. I didn't really have any choice in the matter. My faith was sincere, ever present, empowering. It had a momentu ...[text shortened]... d away and disappeared.
In the end, I was "forced" to admit that I was no longer a Christian.
[FMF]. are you nominating yourself as the 'best' [former] Christian to follow out of all the [former] Christian regular posters here in this community? If there are one or two [former Christians] who are, in your estimation, better than you, who are they?
02 Sep 17
Originally posted by @sonshipNo sonship. I am not. I am just interested in discussion.
Are you nominating yourself as the 'best' [former] Christian to follow out of all the [former] Christian regular posters here in this community?
You actually started a thread called 'Good Christians To Follow' and I asked you - on topic - whether you were able to apply your 'preaching' [your talk the talk], on the matter, to the reality [walk the walk] of this community and its various Christians who say things that are different from each other.
It turned out you had nothing much to say about reality and you just regurgitated some stuff - reams of it - as usual.
On the other hand, I did not start a thread about 'Good ex-Christians To Follow', I have not nominated myself for anything, and I have never suggested that anyone follow me.
So your attempted satire comes up short [and pouty], I reckon. 😛
Originally posted by @sonshipWhat is it you want me to compare? In your case - on your thread where you were explicitly inviting comparison and evaluation of "good Christians to follow" as opposed to less good ones and perhaps even bad ones - the criteria are Christian ideology, preaching skills, leadership skills, setting a Jesus-like example, attention to Paul's teaching on the matter, etc.
If there are one or two [former Christians] who are, in your estimation, better than you, who are they?
This does not apply to me and other non-Christians here as there is no theology that we are teaching, no preaching we are attempting like the stuff you engage in, and there is no suggestion that any of us wish to be followed, which is not a claim you can make about yourself. Again, your satire misses its target.
Originally posted by @sonshipWhat "medicine" is that? You seem to often struggle with my "medicine" which is on-topic observations and questions. Your discomfort with that seems to have spilt over onto this thread. So, do you have any take on my OP? You must have met ex-Christians before and discussed faith with them. Did they talk to you about what they remember about the feeling of having had religious faith in the past?
Little annoying to taste your own medicine ?
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Originally posted by @fmf
What is it you want me to compare? In your case - on your thread where you were explicitly inviting comparison and evaluation of "good Christians to follow" as opposed to less good ones and perhaps even bad ones - the criteria are Christian ideology, preaching skills, leadership skills, setting a Jesus-like example, attention to Paul's teaching on the matter, e ...[text shortened]... ollowed, which is not a claim you can make about yourself. Again, your satire misses its target.
This does not apply to me and other non-Christians here as there is no theology
There is usually philosophy.
that we are teaching,
Wrong.
You and other unbelievers do teach things.
no preaching we are attempting like the stuff you engage in,
Wrong. Unbelievers and skeptics here do preach.
and there is no suggestion that any of us wish to be followed,
Wrong.
Your philosophies often are put out as better ones to follow than Christian faith.
which is not a claim you can make about yourself.
You come to convince.
You come to advertize a better way of thinking and living.
This is obvious even though you try to frame questions so that the Christian is constantly on the defending end and you appear neutral and "objectively" inquisitive.
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Originally posted by @fmfI was a former Christian for some years.
What "medicine" is that? You seem to often struggle with my "medicine" which is on-topic observations and questions. Your discomfort with that seems to have spilt over onto this thread. So, do you have any take on my OP? You must have met ex-Christians before and discussed faith with them. Did they talk to you about what they remember about the feeling of having had religious faith in the past?
I did actually think that the discarded faith was something like a lost teddy bear of my youth. I "outgrew" something that thought sadly was simply not real.
it was like having amnesia. But it was not for 25 years.
It was more like 7 years. And "blacking out" so to speak was gradual.
And I am not saying your experience and mine are exactly equivalent in every way.
02 Sep 17
Originally posted by @sonshipSuzianne once said (or perhaps she said it more than once) that if yours (and her) god figure had made his revelation clearer and more straight forward and incontrovertible in the eyes of all mankind, then it would have deprived humans of free will. Do you agree?
I "outgrew" something that thought sadly was simply not real.