@ghost-of-a-duke saidWe are talking specifically about “spirituality” but I can see why you would prefer to contest the more multi-meaning word “spirit”.
And 'spirit' has long had a non-religious interpretation.
E.g.
he has “spirit” (character) rather than he has A spirit (supernatural)
Vodka is a “spirit”
Paint brush cleaner is white “spirit”
“Spirituality” is not conjugated with character, vodka, paint brush cleaner.
11 Apr 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidCan you find me a definition from a respectable source which includes the specific “primary motivation”.
Altruism, for example, is simply an act where our primary motivation isn't self-interest.
Thanks
12 Apr 21
@fmf saidSo you are starting to use spiritual in a way that corresponds to psychological.
I interpret "spirituality" to mean those metaphysical aspects of our human condition ~ the "human spirit" perhaps, or what religious people might refer to as our "souls" ~ where our capacity - as unique individuals - for abstraction allows us to question who we are and affect one another in non-physical ways.
12 Apr 21
@philokalia saidWell, personally, I think your recent conversion to the Orthodox Catholic Church, if it is to be understood, is perhaps best seen through a prism that combines psychology and anthropology, if that is the sort of thing you're getting at?
So you are starting to use spiritual in a way that corresponds to psychological.
12 Apr 21
@philokalia saidFundamentally, psychology is the study of the psyche, which itself relates to the sense of self, of conscious personality, of spirit. (Or even the soul).
So you are starting to use spiritual in a way that corresponds to psychological.
12 Apr 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidAt the risk of appearing repetitive or argumentative, I am really surprised that someone of your background and atheistic attitude would think stuff like you have posted here about the scientific approaches to the workings of what it ostensibly just a few pounds of, albeit complex, organic material powered by electrical impulses, oxygen and nutrients.
Fundamentally, psychology is the study of the psyche, which itself relates to the sense of self, of conscious personality, of spirit. (Or even the soul).
Myself of course being a believer in souls and the such totally agrees with your observation that there is more to the human condition that can be explained by science.
@divegeester saidIt relates to a paper written by Christine Clavien on altruistic emotional motivation and specifically her focus on psychological altruism.
Can you find me a definition from a respectable source which includes the specific “primary motivation”.
Thanks
Altruism is where a person acts for the benefit of another and where self-interest is not the primary motivator, a selfless concern for the well-being of others. This is reflected in dictionary definitions (such as the Cambridge Dictionary, for example) which states a 'willingness to do things that bring advantages to others, even if it results in disadvantage for yourself.'
12 Apr 21
@divegeester saidI believe in spirit and soul in an entirely non-religious context and flag the word you used yourself 'complex' as particularly significant. It is the complexity of the brain (which we barely understand the workings of) that gives the psyche its je ne sais pas.
At the risk of appearing repetitive or argumentative, I am really surprised that someone of your background and atheistic attitude would think stuff like you have posted here about the scientific approaches to the workings of what it ostensibly just a few pounds of, albeit complex, organic material powered by electrical impulses, oxygen and nutrients.
Myself of course ...[text shortened]... es with your observation that there is more to the human condition that can be explained by science.
12 Apr 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFirstly I believe there is lots of goodness in the world outside of theism.
It relates to a paper written by Christine Clavien on altruistic emotional motivation and specifically his focus on psychological altruism.
Altruism is where a person acts for the benefit of another and where self-interest is not the primary motivator, a selfless concern for the well-being of others. This is reflected in dictionary definitions (such as the Cambridg ...[text shortened]... ness to do things that bring advantages to others, even if it results in disadvantage for yourself.'
I accept that people do nice things for other people where the primary motivation is doing a nice thing for another person.
However these things are not done without some sort of emotional self-reward.
That is my point.
12 Apr 21
2 edits
@ghost-of-a-duke saidAs I replied to this point earlier (perhaps you missed it), the fact that something is complex is not an excuse to replace a scientific explanation with a metaphysical or even religious one.
I believe in spirit and soul in an entirely non-religious context and flag the word you used yourself 'complex' as particularly significant. It is the complexity of the brain (which we barely understand the workings of) that gives the psyche its je ne sais pas.
Because early man didn’t understand where the sky, the earth and themselves came from, they invented...Gods who created them.
What you are saying here is exactly the same thing - actually it’s the same rationale not the same thing - and I confess to including the word “complex” as a bait to draw this out. Sorry.
12 Apr 21
@divegeester saidSome sort of emotional self-reward (or a warm fuzzy feeling) doesn't negate or undo the act of altruism, that's my point. Primary motivator allows for such secondary feelings.
Firstly I believe there is lots of goodness in the world outside of theism.
I accept that people do nice things for other people where the primary motivation is doing a nice thing for another person.
However these things are not done without some sort of emotional self-reward.
That is my point.
12 Apr 21
@divegeester saidThe complexity of the brain has a dimension that we don't fully understand. It is this unknown dimension that contains the spirit, the sense of self. I am not looking to the heavens for an explanation. I fully accept biological reasons beyond our current understanding. I am not dipping my toes into non-scientific origin.
As I replied to this point earlier (perhaps you missed it), the fact that something is complex is not an excuse to replace a scientific explanation with a metaphysical or even religious one.
Because early man didn’t understand where the sky, the earth and themselves came from, they invented...Gods who created them.
What you are saying here is exactly the same thing ...[text shortened]... ot the same thing - and I confess to including the word “complex” as a bait to draw this out. Sorry.
12 Apr 21
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWithout the “warm fuzzy feelings” of self reward many acts of so-called altruism wouldn’t happen. There is a reason evolution has put the “warm fuzzy feeling” right up there to be felt as a warm and fuzzy sense of bio-chemical reward.
Some sort of emotional self-reward (or a warm fuzzy feeling) doesn't negate or undo the act of altruism, that's my point. Primary motivator allows for such secondary feelings.
It’s biological evolution in step with social evolution. That is the scientific approach.
12 Apr 21
2 edits
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe “sense of self” is not called “spirit”, this is your own personal conflation. To conflate “spirit” as in a person’s character, sense of self determination etc, with a spiritual soul, is downright delusional.
The complexity of the brain has a dimension that we don't fully understand. It is this unknown dimension that contains the spirit, the sense of self. I am not looking to the heavens for an explanation. I fully accept biological reasons beyond our current understanding. I am not dipping my toes into non-scientific origin.
I’m surprised you are even attempting it.