The Wisdom of Witness Lee

doesn't get you anywhere.

The ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee has gotten the church's survival through the horribly oppressive Communist regime to crush the Christian gospel practically. And it has resulted in the spread of local churches throughout the globe.

In your next post please specify why we should not "regurgitate" what has been a tremendous blessing to believers in Christ.

Once again, Paul to the Philippians -

"The things which you have also learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you." (Phil. 4:9)

The church there was to be in the things and yes, regurgitate the things. Paul said that if they did, the God of peace would be with them.

Again, I wonder how many genuine Christians are cool with him referring to the Triune God as the ‘four-in-one’ God, with man as the fourth person?

With some fellowship and clarification, I would like to think, they understand what is being meant by that.

You can hardly deny though, that in John 17 Christ prayed that the corporate body of the saved would be one and in oneness with the Divine "Us" of the Triune God.

If this is too much for some Christians to take, then there are other passages that could help them to see the inheritance we have as believers. Some will appreciate. And others will in eternity say "You know, Witness Lee didn't tell us the half of it ! "

One time Brother Lee, I recall, said that we will not consider what he taught "deep" when we are fully saved. Our feeble utterances of today will appear as not much when it all comes down.

@sonship said
You can mention "perspective" all you wish. Your definition of cult is ineffective. You need to either get another definition or definitely and positively point out a biblically wrong teaching.

Ie. "You all hold such a person in high regard therefore you venerate him = a cult" won't work. We do not say the churches are "Lee-ian Church" as in "Lutheran Ch ...[text shortened]... ill not attempt the alternative of showing what is actually heterodox or heretical in our teachings.

It is my honest belief that the church group you are a member of of is a cult of Witness Lee. I am unsurprised that you object to this classification; your objection is no different to Galveston75’s objection.

You and he are both cult members; you each demonstrate similar dogmatic attitudes and attitudes of doctrinal exclusivity. Your religions have a hold over each of you such that you cannot criticise or even disagree publicly with the teaching of the leadership. You are both cult members.

@divegeester

You and he are both cult members; you each demonstrate similar dogmatic attitudes and attitudes of doctrinal exclusivity. Your religions have a hold over each of you such that you cannot criticise or even disagree publicly with the teaching of the leadership. You are both cult members.

That's not what is going on with me.

My spiritual parents I owe respect. It is not that I consider anyone except Christ perfect. But I respect and am thankful to someone whose shepherding care I woe so much of my Christian life.

You regard this as terror to criticize a leader in public. No Divegeester, in my case I regard Brothers Nee and Lee as something of spiritual parents and models to my spiritual health and spiritual life.

Below here, you may read how when Watchman Nee was severely criticized for six YEARS, Lee refuse to participate because he considered that he owed his spiritual health to him.

Read it and think about someone insisting that you say at least SOMETHING bad about your mother or father to PROVE that you can be an independent critical individual. You are not OBLIGATED to speak ill of your parents. And spiritually we can have a similar feeling of respect.

I speak here not for galveston. I speak for me. [my bolding]

In a foregoing message I mentioned that some brothers in Taiwan who had been under my training for years became dissenting. Some even reviled God’s government. They were not only rebellious, but they were also unthankful, ungrateful. It is significant that in verse 2 Paul puts together unthankfulness with disobedience to parents. This may indicate that here unthankful mainly refers to being unthankful to one’s parents. We should be thankful to those who have raised us both physically and spiritually, thankful both to our natural parents and to our spiritual parents.

In the 1940s Brother Nee suffered intense opposition and was forced to be out of function for six years. Some of those who were dissenting with him still felt positive toward me because they had received help from me. One day one of them asked me, “Do you believe that Brother Nee has never been wrong?” I answered, “Whether or not Brother Nee has ever been wrong is not my business. I only know that I am indebted to him just as a child to his parents. If it were not for this servant of the Lord, I could not have the life I now have as a Christian. I have learned the lesson of Ham, the son of Noah, and I dare not say anything negative about him. In a real sense, he has been a spiritual father to me. He has raised me up in the Lord. Therefore, I do not dare say anything negative concerning him.” I can testify that throughout the years I have seen the blessing which has come from maintaining such an attitude toward my spiritual father. Both to our parents in the flesh and in the spirit we must learn to be thankful. It is a very serious matter to be ungrateful toward our parents. One aspect of today’s trend is unthankfulness. This trend, this current, has even swept into Christianity.

Life Study of First and Second Timothy and Titus by Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

@ghost-of-a-duke said
@sonship

In an LSM publication, A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing (p. 54), Lee states, ”My burden is to show you clearly that God’s economy and plan is to make Himself man and to make us, His created beings, God.” On page 53 we read, “We are born of God; hence, in this sense, we are God.” In the same publication, Lee refers to the Triune God as now the ‘four- ...[text shortened]... the fourth person.

Are you truly blind to how this man has strayed away from the Christian path?

You are making excellent points, but you are also wasting your time. All sonship will do is pour more ‘sand’ on your efforts without addressing the points you are raising.

Yea, make a point again Ghost.
Anything, I need to make clearer ?

It is not to stray from the Gospel to teach that sons of God are a kind of enlargement and expansion of God.

Now we do not mean that God can get bigger. But God does dispense Himself into His people. This is the wisdom of Jesus the Son of God when He speaks this brief but powerful all-incompassing word about the Father - Son - Spirit and the believers.

"He [the Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you.

All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He [the Holy Spirit] receives of Mine and will declare it to you." (John 16:15)

The Father is the source. The Son embodies all that the Father is. And the Holy Spirit receives all from the Son which was sourced in the Father, and conveys it all to the believers.

This is the operation of the Triune God to dispense His life and nature into His people. What He is in His three-one being can hardly be separated from what His plan and operation is to carry out.

@divegeester said
You are making excellent points, but you are also wasting your time. All sonship will do is pour more ‘sand’ on your efforts without addressing the points you are raising.

My efforts are not for the benefit of Sonship who is already consumed by the wolf, but other Christians who may have underestimated the blasphemy he tries to sneak in through the backdoor.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

HOW COME ... you never SPECIFIED in Witness Lee's treatment of that basic book of Christian teaching -ROMANS - exactly where Lee's twisted heretical false teaching was ?

That should have been easy for you to produce.

Go find me something there you consider wrong.

I'll try to give you a limited scope to search related to what we've been speaking of lately. Go to the messages on Romans 8-9 (or so) about the sons of God and heirs of God and find me some heretical notion.

18. Heirs of Glory (1)
19. Heirs of Glory (2)
20. Heirs of Glory (3)
21. Heirs of Glory (4)
22. God's Selection, Our Destiny (1)
24. God's Selection, Our Destiny (2)
25. God's Economy in His Selection

Life Study of Romans by Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=220E78

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

HOW COME ... you never SPECIFIED in Witness Lee's treatment of that basic book of Christian teaching -ROMANS - exactly where Lee's twisted heretical false teaching was ?

That should have been easy for you to produce.

Go find me something there you consider wrong.

I'll try to give you a limited scope to search related to what we've been ...[text shortened]... ]

Life Study of Romans by Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=220E78

I am not constrained by you Sonship. You remind me of the JW who appears on my doorstep in an odd hat trying to steer me to the book of Daniel.

Lee blasphemes in elevating man to the status of God and implanting him into the Trinity. You likewise.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Lee blasphemes in elevating man to the status of God and implanting him into the Trinity. You likewise.

No we don't.

Oneness in God is not the same as robbing God of His status.

Now tell me. Does this verse signify oneness of the Father and the Son with the believers in Jesus?

"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)

Let us get a grip on this mysterious saying:
He is in the Father. But the believers are in Him. But being in Him, He is also in them. It is very recursive in a wonderful way.

Is this a kind of mingled oneness or not?
Secondly, does it rob God of His unique Godhead or usurp His eternal authority?

If so, should we not blame Jesus for saying it?

My take - it does show an utter union of the saved with the Father and the Son.
But it does not elevate the saved in such a way as to rob God of His unique Headship and Fatherhood of all the saved. Nor does it make His eternal status their own.

It is their salvation.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Lee blasphemes in elevating man to the status of God and implanting him into the Trinity. You likewise.

No we don't.

Oneness in God is not the same as robbing God of His status.

Now tell me. Does this verse signify oneness of the Father and the Son with the believers in Jesus?

[b]"In that day you will know that ...[text shortened]... atherhood of all the saved. Nor does it make His eternal status their own.

It is their salvation.

Trinity is divisible by 3, not 4.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Lee blasphemes in elevating man to the status of God and implanting him into the Trinity. You likewise.

You accuse me of blaspheming God. What are you doing teaching the world that there IS no God at all - Atheism ?

Did you lose your faith while getting your training to (perhaps) be a clergyman ?

Did you go in believing in God and come out unsure and wanting to throw in your hat with those denying God's very existence ?

Anyway, the Bible ends with Christ (who is God incarnate) MARRYING , MARRYING a corporate group of people.

Obviously, it means that they have arrived to MATCH Him. They are LIKE Him. They are to Him as Eve was to Adam - a match. They have come right out of Him to be brought back TO Him for an eternal marriage. The one became two. And the two were brought together to be one.

They have to have been brought into a state that they correspond to what He is - God-man. And He has become to them as Adam was to his wife - OUT from Him, as a part of Him, they were produced.

This is the climax of the 66 books of the Bible's revelation (Revelation 21 and 22).

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Lee blasphemes in elevating man to the status of God and implanting him into the Trinity. You likewise.

You accuse me of blaspheming God. What are you doing teaching the world that there IS no God at all - Atheism ?

Did you lose your faith while getting your training to (perhaps) be a clergyman ?

Did you go in believing i ...[text shortened]... ced.

This is the climax of the 66 books of the Bible's revelation (Revelation 21 and 22).

I have 'never' believed in your God. Please explain how I blaspheme a non-existent deity?


And if you bothered to read my answers to your questions you would know already my studies were geared towards a career in teaching.

Ghost, sometimes a man loves God and intends to serve God.
But something happens while he is getting ready to serve God.

He does something for which he cannot forgive HIMSELF.
God forgives. But he cannot bring himself to forgive himself.

So he becomes very, very cynical.
He can come to hate those who were like he was at one time, believing / loving God.

This I have seen is a matter of a man not able to forgive himself of something on his conscience.

Here is where a man can learn that it is not what you can do that the Lord wants first. It is you yourself that He loves and wants. And the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sins not a renewal of zeal to do better.

Anyway, probably I completely misread your experience. But I thank God for the Lord's recovery where we were recovered from the clergy / laity system and its expectations.