The Wisdom of Witness Lee

@sonship said
@divegeester
Now, Why don't YOU have the guts to plainly identify yourself as a Unitarian ?

I will delighted to answer any question you put to me as soon as you answer mine, to you.

You know the one in the other thread, the one I’ve asked you maybe a hundred times and you won’t answer and we both know why you won’t.

@divegeester

I will delighted to answer any question you put to me as soon as you answer mine, to you.

You know the one in the other thread, the one I’ve asked you maybe a hundred times and you won’t answer and we both know why you won’t.

We've heard that line before.

And argument by repetition only makes you look like a goon of some kind.
So count on.

Folks, I think Divegeester does not like to "identify" himself as a Unitarian, maybe because whereever he goes to meet with fellow Unitarians he can't get along for very long, picks up his marbles and leaves.

Maybe the only legitimate spirituality he trusts is that of completely isolated and independent mavericks who grumble 90% and offer something positive to say 10%.

Go back and look at all the threads started by Divegeester. I think you'll see most of them are "Get A Load of This something wrong!"

Ie.

The Danger of morality based on Religion
The God who burns people alive for eternity
Who here would help me?
Use your head to contact your brain
What! no "Dive is ..." threads today?
What's the point of eternal suffering?
Is the book of Revelation literal or not?
That's me in the spotlight
Blue friendly juice
Perceptive aberration
Myers Biggs posting TYPES
When is hatred acceptable
Jehovahs Witness database of child molesters
Calling out sonship on the trinity and salvation
Callingout ThinkOfOne

Anyway, the regular mode of Divegeester's writing in gloating and pointing out where everyone except Divegeester is defective somehow.

@sonship

'The us/them world view, in fact, becomes the primary driving force of membership. Life inside the LC is perpetually contrasted with the relatively (imagined) horrors of life outside the LC. This indoctrination device is never relaxed because it is believed that the clear boundaries drawn between those on the inside of the group and those on the outside determines one's eternal status before God.'

(Source already provided).

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

'The us/them world view, in fact, becomes the primary driving force of membership. Life inside the LC is perpetually contrasted with the relatively (imagined) horrors of life outside the LC. This indoctrination device is never relaxed because it is believed that the clear boundaries drawn between those on the inside of the group and those on the outside determines one's eternal status before God.'

The very definition of church in the NT is "the called OUT". Us and Them is the biblical definition of the EKKLESIA.

We are in the world yet not of the world. It doesn't mean we do not love those with WHOM we ourselves were among when unbelievers ourselves.

As to internal to the church itself ?

The Apostle Paul said it is normal that there would be a distinction between those approved and those unapproved in certain spiritual matters, for example, the manner in which the believers in Corinth were taking the Lord's supper.

To the church in Corinth he wrote:

"First of all when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and some part of it I believe.

For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you." ( 1 Cor. 11:18,19)

In the called out EKKLESIA sometimes the stronger have to bear with the weaker in love. A difference is manifest.

That I may be at one time weaker in a matter does not mean that one who overcomes has it IN for me.

Why are you so diligent to hunt for divisions to gloat over?
Become a Christian and help Christians shepherd others to spiritual health.

You'd rather be an atheist and gloat over the need for Christians to help one another ? That is pretty despicable.

@sonship said

You'd rather be an atheist and gloat over the need for Christians to help one another ? That is pretty despicable.

What's despicable is your abandonment of your Christian brothers and sisters who stand outside of your movement,

'The group leader insists that those who do not follow him and live obsessively fixated to his ministry and movement will suffer a thousand years of "outer darkness" of anguish, suffering and horror. This was the punishment for Christians! All Christians not in Lee's group were destined, under his teachings, to suffer this fate.'

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

What's despicable is your abandonment of your Christian brothers and sisters who stand outside of your movement,

How have I abandoned brothers and sisters not meeting in local churches?
I left the denominations. I didn't disown saints as my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I started a thread "Recommending Bob Mumford"
I started another thread "Recommending Derek Prince".
Neither met with local churches.

I stated Norm Geisler ( a strong critic of the local churches ) has books in my library on other subjects, and I would recommend them to others without hesitation -

"A General Introduction to the Bible" by Geisler and Nix.

"Christian Apologetics" - Norman Geisler.

"Answering Islam" - Geisler and Saleeb.

I have posted debates of William Lane Craig. He doesn't meet with the local churches.

I have posted Youtubes of J P Moreland and Alvin Plantinga - Christian philosophers not meeting with any local church.

I have posted Youtubes of Gregory Koukle, Denish D'souze, Lee Strobel, J P Holding, Paul Copan, Frank Turek, Hugh Ross, R C Sproul, John Lenox, etc. AND would be happy to do so AGAIN.

None of these as far as I know ever coordinated with Witness Lee or met with local churches.

I recognize the contributions of these saints and in the area of THEIR expertise to Christian life and recommended that believers and unbelievers alike could be helped.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

What's despicable is your abandonment of your Christian brothers and sisters who stand outside of your movement,

How have I abandoned brothers and sisters not meeting in local churches?
I left the denominations. I didn't disown saints as my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I started a thread "Recommending Bob Mumford"
I starte ...[text shortened]... R expertise to Christian life and recommended that believers and unbelievers alike could be helped.

Then explain the following:

'The group leader insists that those who do not follow him and live obsessively fixated to his ministry and movement will suffer a thousand years of "outer darkness" of anguish, suffering and horror. This was the punishment for Christians! All Christians not in Lee's group were destined, under his teachings, to suffer this fate.'

Cultism.

@divegeester

Ghoonism.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

'The group leader insists that those who do not follow him and live obsessively fixated to his ministry and movement will suffer a thousand years of "outer darkness" of anguish, suffering and horror. This was the punishment for Christians! All Christians not in Lee's group were destined, under his teachings, to suffer this fate.'

You can use a Search Engine just like I can. Go to www.ministrybooks.org and SEARCH to see if you can locate something stating what you stated and tell me where you are seeing it so I can examine the whole context.

I.e
AUTOMATIC - No Witness Lee ? Sure automatic punishment in the outer darkness.
AUTOMATIC - Listen to Witness Lee? Sure exemption from discipline.

Find it or get on the phone with one of your unhappy sources and get them to find it for you.

@sonship said
@divegeester

Ghoonism.

Simple question then...

Do you agree with your church’s statement of belief relating to the trinity and salvation?

You won’t answer. Why is that?

You can’t answer because you disagree and you cannot do so publicly, can you?

@divegeester

Simple question then...

Do you agree with your church’s statement of belief relating to the trinity and salvation?

You won’t answer. Why is that?

You can’t answer because you disagree and you cannot do so publicly, can you?

SAMPLES of previous discussion from

Ie. https://www.dailychess.com/forum/spirituality/@sonship-the-trinity-doctrine-and-salvation.170964

And I just may write a lot more on the Trinity. But if I do, as usual, I will be emphasizing the experience of the Trinity rather than just the systematic doctrine of the Trinity.

If a person does not believe that Jesus is Lord how can he be saved?
That Jesus is the Lord God is trinitarian in some sense.
------------------------------------------
Divegeester:
If a Christian/person rejects your version of the trinity teaching entirely, does that mean that they are precluded from having the spirit of Christ and if so, does that mean therefore, that they are not saved?
--------------------------------------------

You may have the Spirit of Christ by calling on the Lord Jesus to receive the Lord Jesus. Plenty of people have and will continue to without knowing much about the revelation of the three-oneness of God.

At least it has been revealed to them that Jesus is the Divine Lord and Savior. And to come to Jesus is to come to God. They know that in coming to Jesus Christ they have come to God Himself. They know it.

Now if you yet again come back demanding a YES or NO to your challenge, because I have "dodged" your question, I will have to repeat the unfortunate charge that you are ... less than candid, let's say.

Same thread latter -

Why is that significant ?

Are you saying that Christians should only talk about things which are beliefs solely required for salvation ?

Ie. "Since being conversant on the triune nature of God is not pertinent to my being saved, it should never be discussed."

Is that the essence of your argument ?
Christians should ONLY discuss the matters pertinent to receiving the gift of eternal redemption ?

Same thread latter -

Divegeester:
------------------------------------------
Sonship you play up the trinity in this forum
---------------------------------------------

I don't consider careful writing on the God's nature and His economy to be "playing up" the trinity. To me it is quite serious analysis of an important revelation to aid in experience of Christ.

It is practical so BELIEVE, for example, that the Son (Who you seem to agree is God) INTERCEDES for the believers.

"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died, and rather was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Romans 8:34)


I don't think this is the Apostle Paul "playing up" the Trinity.
Nor is it me "playing up" the Trinity.
It is faith building and faith edifying, I think, to know that such a verse exists.

I am glad that God - the Son intercedes for me to God the Father as the revelation of the NT says He is at the right hand of.

And I would find it edifying to let fellow believers know that this same interceding One is simultaneously WITHIN the believers, indwelling them as seen in verses 10.

" But if Christ is in you ... " (v.10)

I am sorry if you regard that as me, OR Romans chapter 8 as "playing up" the three-oneness of God. If you are superior and more mature for not wanting to use the very word "trinity" then love me and bare with me.

Forget about, though, thinking I should blush for speaking of the "Triune God".
Its not going to happen.

From @sonship: The trinity doctrine and salvation
Started January 2017

Witness Lee patiently allowed the Lord to vindicate his ministry if it needed confirmation from God. He did not insist to fight back and eradicate ambitious competitors among the local churches undermining his labors.

He let the Holy Spirit have the final say after a long period of time.

Facts Concerning Statements Attributed to Max Rapoport

Max Rapoport, an elder in the church in Anaheim, walked out of a meeting on August 13, 1978, and never returned. Although he had been informed six months earlier that Rapoport was attempting to undermine his ministry and foment a “revolution,” Witness Lee took no action publicly or privately toward him. Rather, Witness Lee travelled widely, encouraging young believers to spend personal time to read the Bible and pray daily. He also gave messages that were subsequently printed in books such as The Experience of Christ and Life-study of Ephesians. The contrast between the encouragement to pursue knowing Christ personally and subjectively and the rich opening of the Word of God in Witness Lee’s ministry and the shallowness of what Rapoport was promoting became evident, and many younger believers who had been drawn to Rapoport by his dynamic personality turned away from him.

Read more at -

https://shepherdingwords.com/facts-concerning-statements-attributed-to-max-rapoport/

'Is truth clarified or hindered by Witness Lee saying "God begets gods?" He's saying that "to them He gave the authority to become children of God" means the same thing as "God begets gods." "Authority to become" doesn't mean "beget". It's an aberrant teaching, if not heretical.'

(Source already provided).