16 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhen the man and the woman decided to opt out of God's system and enter into the system of 'good and evil,' they immediately set upon a religious fix to their problem (by means of clothing).
[b]From what will the truth make you free?
Slavery.
When the man and the woman decided to opt out of God's system and enter into the system of 'good and evil,' they immediately set upon a religious fix to their problem (by means of clothing). Although the clothing remains (as a social orientation), God disabused them of the notion that they would rn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.[/i][/b]
Since you and I have just been locking horns over and over recently, I’ll take the opportunity to give you a hermeneutical A- on this. (Not that I have any standing to give out grades, which you well know; it’s just a way of expressing my broad agreement...)
The only reason it’s not a straight A is that, as you know, a close reading of the texts makes it difficult to conclude for sure that Eve knew what tree she was eating: in fact, she may well have had the whole thing confused. There are other possible readings as well, that don’t entail a deliberate “opting out.”
The error (here’s locking horns again!) that I think you commit is to assume that “right thinking” (right believing) is somehow not a religious fix.
EDIT: I have never questioned your exegetical skills, and in fact have learned from them; I just think you apply them too narrowly, which, of course, is our age-old difference (ad nauseum, ad nauseum)!
16 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhat happens to those who accept the gift and later move away from Christ?
What happens to those who accept the gift and later move away from Christ?
Can one be saved and continue to sin? If so, would this be true of say a serial killer?
How about responding to "What do you believe that Jesus was saying in John 8:32-35?"?
Can one be saved and continue to sin? If so, would this be true of say a serial killer? ----------think of One------------
It's highly unlikely that someone would truely accept christ and then go on to become a serial killer. Have you heard of such a thing?
It's certainly possible to become unsaved and fall away but such a thing falls way outside the normal christian experience.
16 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHow about responding to "What do you believe that Jesus was saying in John 8:32-35?"? ---ToO--------------------
What happens to those who accept the gift and later move away from Christ?
Can one be saved and continue to sin? If so, would this be true of say a serial killer?
How about responding to "What do you believe that Jesus was saying in John 8:32-35?"?
He's confirming that belief in him and who he is saves and that belief will be evidenced by certain actions. Notice later on he points out that it is the Son that sets one free. The truth that sets you free is the knowledge that he is who he says he is and that he has the power (via faith) to set free from sin. It's gift that he offers and acceptance of that gift will be evidenced by a change in lifestyle and attitude. However , you I think are interpreting this to mean that it is the change of attitude itself that saves , whereas infact the change is evidence of salvation not the means to it.
16 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterCan someone truely accept christ and be a serial rapist?
What happens to those who accept the gift and later move away from Christ?
Can one be saved and continue to sin? If so, would this be true of say a serial killer? ----------think of One------------
It's highly unlikely that someone would truely accept christ and then go on to become a serial killer. Have you heard of such a thing?
It's cer ...[text shortened]... come unsaved and fall away but such a thing falls way outside the normal christian experience.
Can someone truely accept christ and be a serial adulterer?
Serial thief?
Serial liar?
Serially prideful?
Serial glutton?
Where's the cut-off?
17 Oct 07
3 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterHave you noticed how you read these verses through the lens of your own beliefs? He doesn't seem to actually say much of what you've presented here. I don't see where he addresses 'cause and effect' in as much detail as you seem to be. I don't think that I did either.
How about responding to "What do you believe that Jesus was saying in John 8:32-35?"? ---ToO--------------------
He's confirming that belief in him and who he is saves and that belief will be evidenced by certain actions. Notice later on he points out that it is the Son that sets one free. The truth that sets you free is the knowledge that he is who itself that saves , whereas infact the change is evidence of salvation not the means to it.
You seem to have ignored John 8:34-35 altogether other than an inference you make from "but the Son abideth ever."
"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever."
Care to comment?
19 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHave you noticed how you read these verses through the lens of your own beliefs? ---think ofone-------
Have you noticed how you read these verses through the lens of your own beliefs? He doesn't seem to actually say much of what you've presented here. I don't see where he addresses 'cause and effect' in as much detail as you seem to be. I don't think that I did either.
You seem to have ignored John 8:34-35 altogether other than an inference you make fr eth not in the house for ever[/i]: but the Son abideth ever."
Care to comment?[/b]
It's called seeing the whole thing in context rather than focussing on ONE particular aspect of Christ's teachings . You seem to only focus on those that seem to indicate to you that jesus requires only change in behaviour where as Ephin has pointed out that he says just as much concerning faith.
I try to address the balance with you because you can't seem to hold the two ideas together at the same time (ie that salvation is a gift of faith and transformation is neccessary). Once you realsie it's both and one truth does not exclude the other then the penny will drop.
19 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneCan someone truely accept christ and be a serial rapist?
Can someone truely accept christ and be a serial rapist?
Can someone truely accept christ and be a serial adulterer?
Serial thief?
Serial liar?
Serially prideful?
Serial glutton?
Where's the cut-off?
Can someone truely accept christ and be a serial adulterer?
Serial thief?
Serial liar?
Serially prideful?
Serial glutton?
Where's the cut-off?
-----thinkof one----------------
One cannot say that salvation is not open to a serial rapist but if he accepted christ then one would expect to see at least some changes in his life. However , he might still have problems and struggle with lust (for example) and still be saved. One would expect him to be improving his behaviour though.
However it seems improvement is not enough for you because he has to be perfect before he can be considered a true follower of christ. It may have taken him his last ounce of effort to get to where he is but still be some way behind someone enlightened like you. He may still have bad habits and have pride as well , but for you until he is 100% enlightened he cannot be said to be saved even though the cards he may have been dealt in life were a lot worse than yours.
The folly of this is that You or I will never know what it cost this (hypothetical) guy to follow Jesus but if we judge by our standards then we put ourselves in the pace of Jesus (ooops!) . If he says he believes then it is not our place to say he doesn't because his behaviour does not match up to our "enlightened" standards. It's not our place to say where the cut off point is , that's between him and God and his conscience. We cannot know for sure , but you are right in saying that it should make a difference in his life.We could pull him aside and correct him forcefully but to say he is not saved is not something we have the right (or knowledge) to do.
I myself am serially prideful , but I keep going back to christ and asking forgiveness. I then try to do better next time , but if I think that only when I get it right 100% will Christ accept me then I am in bondage to fear and don't have what the Bible says is the assurance of salvation. My struggle is between him and me. Only he knows the battles I fight and why I don't always win. But with his unconditional acceptance I can be empowered to overcome, whereas you think I must overcome first in order to be accepted. You have not understood what St paul calls the depth and breadth of the love of Christ.
20 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterPerhaps you missed the context of my most. You had made the following statement:
Can someone truely accept christ and be a serial rapist?
Can someone truely accept christ and be a serial adulterer?
Serial thief?
Serial liar?
Serially prideful?
Serial glutton?
Where's the cut-off?
-----thinkof one----------------
One cannot say that salvation is not open to a serial rapist but if he accepted christ then one would e ...[text shortened]... You have not understood what St paul calls the depth and breadth of the love of Christ.
It's highly unlikely that someone would truely accept christ and then go on to become a serial killer. Have you heard of such a thing?
If you doubt that a serial killer can truly accepted Christ, then how can you be certain that any other sinner can truly accept Christ?
Which sins prohibit one from truly accepting Christ? Which are allowed?
20 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI've never doubted the importance of believing in (having faith in) the teachings of Jesus. If one believes in following the teachings of Jesus, one will follow them. If one believes more in following the desires of the self, one won't. When I read the words of Jesus, I hear him saying as much. The idea of some nebulous standard of belief which falls short of following the teachings of Jesus doesn't make sense and is contrary to the words of Jesus. I've yet to have someone clearly define what that standard is. I keep waiting for the penny to drop for you. Either be a follower of Jesus or be a follower of Christianity and its watered-down definition of belief.
Have you noticed how you read these verses through the lens of your own beliefs? ---think ofone-------
It's called seeing the whole thing in context rather than focussing on ONE particular aspect of Christ's teachings . You seem to only focus on those that seem to indicate to you that jesus requires only change in behaviour where as Ephin has point ...[text shortened]... nce you realsie it's both and one truth does not exclude the other then the penny will drop.
21 Oct 07
3 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneQuestion #1 -- What does it mean for you to be a follower of Jesus? And please don't just say, "to follow the teachings of Jesus." What does that mean for you?
I've never doubted the importance of believing in (having faith in) the teachings of Jesus. If one believes in following the teachings of Jesus, one will follow them. If one believes more in following the desires of the self, one won't. When I read the words of Jesus, I hear him saying as much. The idea of some nebulous standard of belief which falls shor ollower of Jesus or be a follower of Christianity and its watered-down definition of belief.
Question #2 -- How well do you follow Jesus? Perfectly? Or imperfectly?
Question #3 -- Do you think being selfless and good, without faith, is sufficient for salvation?
21 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI think (striving) to be selfless and good is inextricable from having faith. If your attitude and
Question #3 -- Do you think being selfless and good, without faith, is sufficient for salvation?
actions are not informed by your faith by making you more compassionate and just (e.g.), then
you don't have faith, no matter how many times you say 'Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.'
Nemesio
21 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioYes, but someone may also strive to be selfless and good out of fear of condemnation; having faith in their efforts rather than faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Having only faith in their own efforts to bring them into God's favor, how could such people ever give thanks to the Lord or rejoice in Him? What good is striving without first having a joyful trust in Jesus?
I think (striving) to be selfless and good is inextricable from having faith. If your attitude and
actions are not informed by your faith by making you more compassionate and just (e.g.), then
you don't have faith, no matter how many times you say 'Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.'
Nemesio
21 Oct 07
2 edits
You know, it sounds to me like the great underlying objection to the doctrine of justification by faith is, essentially, that it seems "too good to be true." People mistrust the message initially because its "too good to be true" vibe is counterintuitive, and I think that initial mistrust fuels every subsequent effort to sweep justification by faith under the rug.
But scripture doesn't refer to that message as "Good News" for nothing! If the message were simply, "Be good enough and the Lord will save you," that wouldn't be good news (it wouldn't even be "news," - the Pharisees taught just that for centuries before Christ arrived). The Good News is an offer of reconciliation with the Father through the sacrifice of the Son; a free gift appropriated by faith.
I can think of no better reason to praise the Lord, than for what He accomplished on my behalf!
21 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasHere is my opinion:
Question #1 -- What does it mean for you to be a follower of Jesus? And please don't just say, "to follow the teachings of Jesus." What does that mean for you?
Question #2 -- How well do you follow Jesus? Perfectly? Or imperfectly?
Question #3 -- Do you think being selfless and good, without faith, is sufficient for salvation?
1. To be a follower of Jesus means to follow His teachings. 🙂 Sorry but thats the best way to say it. You learn the commandments of Christ and try to do them. There are many who are followers (doers) of the teachings of Christ because they have read the Bible, and some are doers 'by nature'... these have the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness.
Consider this passage in Matt 5:
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
When Christ spoke of these people, there is no indication that he was referring only to his followers or people of faith. But these are the kind of people that are likely to be worthy of salvation.
2. The obvious answer is that there is no such thing as 'perfect' or 'perfection' in any human endevour.
3. There is no proper and definitive answer to this in the Bible. The best way to be sure is to
a. believe and have faith,
b. be baptised and
c. do the good works like those described by Christ in Matt 25.
But I am sure there are likely to be faithful people who will be given salvation despite the lack of works. In my opinion however it would seem from what Christ said that 'c' carries the most weight.
21 Oct 07
6 edits
Originally posted by Rajk9991. To be a follower of Jesus means to follow His teachings. 🙂 Sorry but thats the best way to say it. You learn the commandments of Christ and try to do them.
Here is my opinion:
1. To be a follower of Jesus means to follow His teachings. 🙂 Sorry but thats the best way to say it. You learn the commandments of Christ and try to do them. There are many who are followers (doers) of the teachings of Christ because they have read the Bible, and some are doers 'by nature'... these have the work of the law writte my opinion however it would seem from what Christ said that 'c' carries the most weight.
Yes, but how does that manifest in your life? For instance, how do you go about being meek? Or how do you go about "taking up your cross"? What good works do you regularly perform? Christ commanded to spread the Gospel -- what gospel do you preach? Is it reconciliation by works or reconciliation by faith?
When you perform these duties, do you say to yourself, "Wow, I was especially selfless and meek today - surely the Lord will save me!" Or do you say, "Thank you, Lord, for what you accomplished for me on the cross, giving me peace with the Father; forgive me for boasting in my good works, for I have only done my duty."
When Christ spoke of these people, there is no indication that he was referring only to his followers or people of faith. But these are the kind of people that are likely to be worthy of salvation.
Actually, the sermon on the mount is a description of the law of the new kingdom which Christ came to the earth to establish. The poor in spirit (the spiritually bankrupt, i.e. the unworthy) are blessed because they shall receive the kingdom despite themselves. Those that mourn for their sins will be blessed (happy) because they will be comforted. The meek (those who depend on the Lord for everything) will inherit the earth, the kingdom that Christ is going to establish, etc., etc....
Far from being a list of prerequisites for salvation, the sermon on the mount is Christ's joyful announcement of the Kingdom of grace which God sent Him to establish.
2. The obvious answer is that there is no such thing as 'perfect' or 'perfection' in any human endevour.
If you won't be able to obey Christ perfectly, then how do you expect to be saved? By faith?
3. There is no proper and definitive answer to this in the Bible. The best way to be sure is to
a. believe and have faith,
b. be baptised and
c. do the good works like those described by Christ in Matt 25.
But I am sure there are likely to be faithful people who will be given salvation despite the lack of works. In my opinion however it would seem from what Christ said that 'c' carries the most weight.
But are you sure because you have faith, or are you sure because you perform good works?
Which do you deem more trustworthy:
(1) God, or
(2) Your works
Do you think it matters to God if you trust in your good works rather than in Him?