22 Oct 07
Originally posted by vistesdSorry, v. For some reason, this thread just slipped off my radar and I had forgotten the conversation. Nothing personal, to be certain.
When the man and the woman decided to opt out of God's system and enter into the system of 'good and evil,' they immediately set upon a religious fix to their problem (by means of clothing).
Since you and I have just been locking horns over and over recently, I’ll take the opportunity to give you a hermeneutical A- on this. (Not that I have any stand ...[text shortened]... pply them too narrowly, which, of course, is our age-old difference (ad nauseum, ad nauseum)![/b]
The only reason it’s not a straight A is that, as you know, a close reading of the texts makes it difficult to conclude for sure that Eve knew what tree she was eating: in fact, she may well have had the whole thing confused.
My oversight. The woman was definitely deceived and I characterized her choice as purposeful. The Bible seems to make more of her confusion than it does collusion. Not so for the man: he knew exactly what he was doing. In haste, I carelessly lumped their actions together. My bad.
The error (here’s locking horns again!) that I think you commit is to assume that “right thinking” (right believing) is somehow not a religious fix.
This is probably more a disagreement regarding the term 'religious' than anything else, as can be seen in my ongoing wrestle with Penguin over the same term.
From what I see, the man and the woman acted to right themselves by doing two things: physically hiding from God and then physically adorning themselves with the leaves from the Garden. The physical act of hiding from God in shame required a set of thinking (shame) prior to the act itself. Thinking (albeit wrong) came first, then the action of hiding. Motivated by shame, there wasn't an action their minds could possibly conceive that would lead to bridging the gap between them and God, undoing, as it were, their collective act.
Adorning themselves with the very leaves from the trees of the Garden was further proof of their desperation. The act was designed to address an inside problem with an outside solution. God eventually clothed them with a reminder of the cost of their transgression: blood. Multiplying the the agony, neither now could stand in for the other as that sacrifice. The temporary blood would come from innocent animals; the permanent work would be done by God Himself, through the woman's seed.
Their act of clothing with what they thought best was religious. Their compliance to God's standard of allowing Him to do the work signified their faith in reliance on the goodness of a personal God.
And, thank you for the left-handed compliment (apologies to those informed by the right side of their brains). In the (very unlikely) that your wide-open perspective of the text is right, even my narrow view is safe! 😉
22 Oct 07
Originally posted by Nemesio"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you" (John 14:16-17).
Where does the Bible exclude the 'infilling' of the Spirit on the unbeliever?
Nemesio
23 Oct 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIn the (very unlikely) that your wide-open perspective of the text is right, even my narrow view is safe!
Sorry, v. For some reason, this thread just slipped off my radar and I had forgotten the conversation. Nothing personal, to be certain.
[b]The only reason it’s not a straight A is that, as you know, a close reading of the texts makes it difficult to conclude for sure that Eve knew what tree she was eating: in fact, she may well have had the whole thi ...[text shortened]... kely) that your wide-open perspective of the text is right, even my narrow view is safe! 😉
That, of course, I cannot argue with! 🙂 (I didn’t mean my compliment to sound either as “left-handed” nor as presumptuous as it likely did.)
23 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasI think it its more important to go about your daily life much like the Good Samaritan ... ie when someone crosses your path that needs your help, you help and dont look the other way.
[b]1. To be a follower of Jesus means to follow His teachings. 🙂 Sorry but thats the best way to say it. You learn the commandments of Christ and try to do them.
Yes, but how does that manifest in your life? For instance, how do you go about being meek? Or how do you go about "taking up your cross"? What good works do Do you think it matters to God if you trust in your good works rather than in Him?[/b]
You do it willingly, with humility, without boasting or expecting reward, and Christ promised you will be rewarded appropriately when the time comes.
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI've never doubted the importance of believing in (having faith in) the teachings of Jesus. If one believes in following the teachings of Jesus, one will follow them. If one believes more in following the desires of the self, one won't. When I read the words of Jesus, I hear him saying as much. The idea of some nebulous standard of belief which falls short of following the teachings of Jesus doesn't make sense and is contrary to the words of Jesus. -----thinkof ONE------
I've never doubted the importance of believing in (having faith in) the teachings of Jesus. If one believes in following the teachings of Jesus, one will follow them. If one believes more in following the desires of the self, one won't. When I read the words of Jesus, I hear him saying as much. The idea of some nebulous standard of belief which falls shor ...[text shortened]... ollower of Jesus or be a follower of Christianity and its watered-down definition of belief.
------- RESPONSE-----
You are spot on about what Jesus said ......and yet the question still remains , who judges and who decides the cut off point and how is one saved. Jesus clearly states that there is such a thing as saving faith and that belief in him is a key factor and yet you consistently underplay this. You play his sayings about following him and faith off against each other when infact they compliment each other. You also consistently fail to say whether a man who follows christ 99% of the time is saved even when he fails or falls. Is it only 100% following christ that is acceptable? Or is our humanity to be taken into account at all?
24 Oct 07
6 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterWould you accept Jesus as Judge?
I've never doubted the importance of believing in (having faith in) the teachings of Jesus. If one believes in following the teachings of Jesus, one will follow them. If one believes more in following the desires of the self, one won't. When I read the words of Jesus, I hear him saying as much. The idea of some nebulous standard of belief which falls s 100% following christ that is acceptable? Or is our humanity to be taken into account at all?
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit..."
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
"If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him."
How many ways do you need for Him to say it?
From what I can tell, what you call "our humanity" IS our desire to please ourselves. IS our desire to sin.
"No servant can serve two masters..."
Who's the master? The desire for the self? Or the desire for truth, love, compassion, justice, etc.
"Professing belief" and "belief" aren't the same thing.
"Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?"
If one truly believes in Him, one will do the things that he says.
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI accept everything you say here except the all or nothing approach. What Jesus says here is obviously unequivocal and challenging but these are not the only things he said. He also said "things that cause men to sin are bound to come" and " your faith has saved you" . We need balance here.
Would you accept Jesus as Judge?
[b]"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit..."
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
"If a man loves me, ...[text shortened]... ]
If one truly believes in Him, one will do the things that he says.
Our humanity is not just our desire to please ourselves it is also the stuff we are made of. We get ill , we have headaches , we get grumpy and moody. We don't always get it right. We set out with the best intentions and then mess it up. This is also the human condition. God knows we are made of dust and clay and has said as much. Some of our sin is no doubt down to our human frailty , but according to you we are all robots who once we have decided to follow christ will never ever put a foot wrong and follow him 100%????
If you can do this then please let me know what your secret is or what drug you are using. It better keep working though because one slip and you will not be saved!(LOL)
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him."
Would you accept Jesus as Judge?
[b]"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit..."
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
"If a man loves me, ...[text shortened]... ]
If one truly believes in Him, one will do the things that he says.
quoted by ---------------Think of One-------------------------------
...has he made his home with you then?
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"Professing belief" and "belief" aren't the same thing.----tOf One------
Would you accept Jesus as Judge?
[b]"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit..."
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
"If a man loves me, ...[text shortened]... ]
If one truly believes in Him, one will do the things that he says.
Of course , that's a no brainer...you think I don't know this??? False belief cannot save because it's meaningless and without substance. However , how do you get from there to the idea that belief and faith do not save a man is the bit I don't get.
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterTo which verses are you refering when you say Jesus said "things that cause men to sin are bound to come"? Are you speaking of Matthew 18:7-9? If you are, I suggest you read it in its entirety.
I accept everything you say here except the all or nothing approach. What Jesus says here is obviously unequivocal and challenging but these are not the only things he said. He also said "things that cause men to sin are bound to come" and " your faith has saved you" . We need balance here.
Our humanity is not just our desire to please ourselves ...[text shortened]... u are using. It better keep working though because one slip and you will not be saved!(LOL)
"Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Jesus doesn't seem to speaking of "balance".
I keep saying that belief IS important. One really needs to believe in living a life of truth, love, compassion, justice etc. to be able to set aside the desires of the self. To be able to come to the realization that what the ego desires is worthless. When Jesus said, "Your faith has saved you", could he not have been speaking of this? It's not about becoming a "robot". It's about giving up the "life" that the ego desires. What the ego desires is really a form of "death".
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." Luke 9:23-24
24 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeister"Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?"
"Professing belief" and "belief" aren't the same thing.----tOf One------
Of course , that's a no brainer...you think I don't know this??? False belief cannot save because it's meaningless and without substance. However , how do you get from there to the idea that belief and faith do not save a man is the bit I don't get.
Jesus seems to be saying that what does have meaning and substance is actually following his teachings.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
If one truly believes in Him, one will follow his teachings and no longer be a "slave of sin".
The truth will make you free. Not a "robot", but free from the desires of the ego.
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhen Jesus said, "Your faith has saved you", could he not have been speaking of this? It's not about becoming a "robot". It's about giving up the "life" that the ego desires. What the ego desires is really a form of "death". ----think of one--------------
To which verses are you refering when you say Jesus said "things that cause men to sin are bound to come"? Are you speaking of Matthew 18:7-9? If you are, I suggest you read it in its entirety.
[b]"Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block come ...[text shortened]... er will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." Luke 9:23-24[/b]
When Jesus talks about saving faith he is talking about faith in him , however I agree with much of what you say. I just don't agree with the all or nothing approach to it. For example , I am committed to putting to death what my ego desires and following truth and compassion and love. However , I still find that my ego is a stubborn b****r to shift and it's a battle. Jesus knows that I am struggling away and most of the time I win through but I still fail on occasions.
Now , am I to go through the confusion of being saved one minute and then lost the next only to be saved once again the next day? Is this what the Bible says we are to endure or does it talk about having an assurance of salvation via faith or the "seal of the Holy Spirit"? Of course it does , but this does not negate your point about the importance of following earnestly and truely.
Are you saying that you have completely removed your ego and that you never ever ever succumb to it's desires in a short moment of human weakness maybe once every 2-3 years?
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJesus seems to be saying that what does have meaning and substance is actually following his teachings. --------------------------------------------------Think of one-----
[b]"Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?"
Jesus seems to be saying that what does have meaning and substance is actually following his teachings.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
If one truly believes in Him, on ...[text shortened]...
The truth will make you free. Not a "robot", but free from the desires of the ego.[/b]
But this does not distract from faith itself. Here he is tackling those who profess faith but don't follow , which is no faith at all of course. This does not mean that faith is cannot save though. (Actually its the Holy spirit that saves via faith)
24 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterKM: Actually its the Holy spirit that saves via faith
Jesus seems to be saying that what does have meaning and substance is actually following his teachings. --------------------------------------------------Think of one-----
But this does not distract from faith itself. Here he is tackling those who profess faith but don't follow , which is no faith at all of course. This does not mean that faith is cannot save though. (Actually its the Holy spirit that saves via faith)
Jesus says this where in the Synoptic Gospels?