21 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisteryes. it is. and you stated the case beautifully.
And yet, many seem to believe that by merely professing a "belief" in Jesus, eternal life is gained. That it doesn't matter if they continue to sin. ---Think of ONe-----
...and who's going to decide the cut off point when a man has stopped sinning enough to have "gained" eternal life? What if he lives a holy life but slips up one day , does he then ...[text shortened]... tion by making a mess of things)?
Isn't this just salavtion by works by another name?
21 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloydActually, Knightmeister argued something that ThinkOfOne did not state or imply. ThinkOfOne's
yes. it is. and you stated the case beautifully.
point was that the umbrella term 'faith' has many components, one of which is works. It's not
about quantity or even quality of works (because no one is arguing that salvation is achieved
through works); it's that a genuine faith compels a person to Christian service (charity,
compassion, &c). Moreover, a person who claims to 'have faith' and 'know Jesus' and does not
do works (as per St Matthew 25) in fact does not have a necessary component of faith as articulated
by Jesus Himself. That person does not 'know Jesus' because that person does not see Him within
the person in need (the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the lonely, &c).
Nemesio
22 Oct 07
6 edits
Originally posted by NemesioBut a question remains -- Is a Christian truly able to live a holy life and perform the works of God in his or her own strength? You have yet to define what actually "compels" a person of genuine faith. This is the crux of the issue. Works done in obedience to the Spirit of God are acceptable, but those works which arise from the imagination of man are worthless.
Actually, Knightmeister argued something that ThinkOfOne did not state or imply. ThinkOfOne's
point was that the umbrella term 'faith' has many components, one of which is works. It's not
about quantity or even quality of works (because [b]no one is arguing that salvation is achieved
through works); it's that a genuine faith compels a person to Chri
the person in need (the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the lonely, &c).
Nemesio[/b]
Faith is not nebulous (though some imagine it is), you either have it, or you don't. Whether you are "born from above" or not is completely dependent on whether you have faith or not. Christ taught this and so did His disciples. Only those who have faith in the Gospel of Christ* receive the Holy Spirit; that is, only those who are made "new creatures" in Christ receive the Holy Spirit.
Being made into a "new creature" in Christ is a definite historical event in the life of a believer, which cannot be undone, per God's promise. After he repents of his sins and believes the Gospel, God nails that believer's "old man/self" to the cross and henceforth that believer is a new creature in Christ.
After justification and rebirth are accomplished, through faith, the life of a believer becomes a process of sanctification (being made holy, progressively). "For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy" (Heb. 10:14).
What actually "compels" a person of genuine faith, that's the question.
(* "That Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" - 1 Cor. 15:3-4)
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ThinkOfOne's point was that the umbrella term 'faith' has many components, one of which is works.
Yes, but the faith which ThinkOfOne is referring to is not the faith which we are referring to. Of course, by design his idea of faith would naturally contain all the aspects of faith which faith is "supposed to" have, except it is still not the faith which either Christ or the disciples are talking about. For one simple reason: ThinkOfOne doesn't believe that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation.
Let me explain.
Christ said explicitly that the Holy Spirit would not be given to men until after He was crucified. Furthermore, Christ said, just as explicitly, that only those who had faith in Himself would receive the Holy Spirit. Yet, ThinkOfOne completely denies this. Instead, he claims that all people are born with the Holy Spirit already in their hearts and all that is needed is for them to perform good works, whether you are a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Christian, it doesn't matter. Faith in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation.
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In his usual condescending tone, here is ThinkOfOne in his own words:
"As you come to understand the Holy Spirit, you'll come to realize that ALL have been born with the Holy Spirit inside them. Most choose to ignore it and listen to the self instead." -- Thread 74869
"The Holy Spirit has been placed in the hearts of ALL men as has the law been written there." -- Thread 69378
"The spirit is there. All one need do is look at young children. It's truly marvelous how it comes out from time to time. But the desires of the flesh (world) dominate most by the time they become adults. If they mature and overcome the flesh, the spirit springs forth." -- Thread 69378
"What precludes man being born with both a 'sin nature' and the Holy Spirit? What preclude the 'sin nature' from being the stronger of the two and something to overcome. Perhaps knowing God goes beyond scripture. Perhaps one also needs to use the Holy Spirit inside. Does this go against scripture?" -- Thread 69378
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ThinkOfOne's theology is decidedly not taken from the teachings of Christ. If it were, he would not insist on contradicting Christ's very clear teachings about when the Holy Spirit would be given, and exactly who would receive it: "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:38-39).
(It's fascinating to me to see how someone can contradict Jesus Christ so blatantly, yet remain utterly confident in his own supposedly enlightened form of Christianity. What spirit were you born with, ThinkOfOne? I assure you it wasn't the Holy Spirit. You need to repent and get born again, sir.)
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The crux of the issue remains: Who is your faith placed in, and what motivating power lies behind your good works? Are you operating in your own power and according to your own wisdom, or are you operating in the power of the Holy Spirit and relying on God's wisdom? Whether you have faith or not determines which is true of you (or me).
22 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhere does it say that belief alone confers the Holy Spirit and/or that disbelief necessarily excludes it?
But a question remains -- Is a Christian truly able to live a holy life and perform the works of God in his or her own strength? You have yet to define what actually "compels" a person of genuine faith. This is the crux of the issue. Works done in obedience to the Spirit of God are acceptable, but those works which arise from the imagination of man ar ...[text shortened]... or not determines which is true of you (or me).
Nemesio
22 Oct 07
5 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasOnce again you've given more examples of how you allow your preconceived notions to distort what you read:
But a question remains -- Is a Christian truly able to live a holy life and perform the works of God in his or her own strength? You have yet to define what actually "compels" a person of genuine faith. This is the crux of the issue. Works done in obedience to the Spirit of God are acceptable, but those works which arise from the imagination of man ar or not determines which is true of you (or me).
You said:
"Instead, he claims that all people are born with the Holy Spirit already in their hearts and all that is needed is for them to perform good works..."
Then you cited several posts of mine to prove your point.
The part in bold is not at all supported by the quotes you cite. In fact the part in bold is a fabrication on your part.
You make the following strong claims:
"ThinkOfOne's theology is decidedly not taken from the teachings of Christ. If it were, he would not insist on contradicting Christ's very clear teachings... It's fascinating to me to see how someone can contradict Jesus Christ so blatantly..."
You cite the following quote from Jesus to support your claim:
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
I fail to see how your quotes from me "blatantly contradicts" your quote from Jesus.
You are careless with the truth. You see what you want to see, not what is there.
22 Oct 07
Originally posted by NemesioWhere does it say unbelievers are blessed with the Holy Spirit?
Where does it say that belief alone confers the Holy Spirit and/or that disbelief necessarily excludes it?
Nemesio
Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8).
Nicodemus responds, "How can these things be?" (John 3:9).
Jesus responds by chastising Nicodemus and then explains that the Son of Man must die and that those who believe on Him would be saved (similar to the bronze serpent in the wilderness which the Israelites looked upon to be healed). Jesus is making a clear parallel between His above statement that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of the Spirit, and John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
And, of course, there is this passage from Matthew, which clearly equates faith with reception of the Holy Spirit:
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:38-39).
If you read the book of acts there is not one instance where unbelievers were given the gift of the Holy Spirit. There were instance where the gift of the Holy Spirit was given to people who were not yet baptized, showing that the Lord is not confined to outward signs, but no instances of unbelief receiving God's blessing.
Here is Paul in Galatians 3:2-3, "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" He confirms two important things: (1) people receive the spirit when they believe, and (2) people are not made perfect in their own strength, but in the power of the Holy Spirit.
22 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasTo be clear:
Where does it say unbelievers are blessed with the Holy Spirit?
...
If you read the book of acts there is not one instance where unbelievers were given the gift of the Holy Spirit. There were instance where the gift of the Holy Spirit was given to people who were not yet baptized, showing that the Lord is not confined to outward signs, but no instances of unbelief receiving God's blessing.
You agree that the Bible doesn't exclude the possibility that the Spirit can descend upon an
'unbeliever,' right?
Nemesio
22 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOnce again you've given more examples of how you allow your preconceived notions to distort what you read:
Once again you've given more examples of how you allow your preconceived notions to distort what you read:
You said:
"Instead, he claims that all people are born with the Holy Spirit already in their hearts and [b]all that is needed is for them to perform good works..."
Then you cited several posts of mine to prove your point.
The par
You are careless with the truth. You see what you want to see, not what is there.[/b]
You said:
"Instead, he claims that all people are born with the Holy Spirit already in their hearts and [b]all that is needed is for them to perform good works..."
Then you cited several posts of mine to prove your point.
The part in bold is not at all supported by the quotes you cite.[/b]
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Are you really so willing to compromise your own beliefs on this matter just for the sake of proving me wrong? You're accusing me of having preconceived notions about what you believe, but you know quite well that I am right.
Here are several quotes which show your true thoughts on the subject:
"What do you see as "rejecting" Christ? If one comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc., yet doesn't proclaim Jesus as his savior, has he "rejected" Christ? What is Christ if not the embodiment of love, compassion, justice, etc.?... Ultimately Jesus is not a person... Perhaps you're too transfixed on Christ the "figure" instead of what he represents. Perhaps your knowledge of religions other than Christianity is so poor that you can't see how many of them are built on the same foundation.... Jesus pretty consistently points away from "Jesus the figure" as he does in John 7:16. He pretty consistently points away from "Jesus the person".... I hope someday your heart will be opened by the Holy Spirit enough to be able to see the beauty in one who follows the will of God. One who comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc. no matter the name." -- Thread 69378
You make several clear points: (1) Jesus is the embodiment of love, compassion, justice, etc., and not a person, (2) Living a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc., without faith in Jesus is sufficient, (3) Jesus pointed away from Himself (i.e., did not require people to believe in Him).
Now, tell me, did I truly fabricate what you believe? No, I didn't. Did you fabricate the notion that I was misrepresenting you? Yes, you did.
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You make the following strong claims:
"ThinkOfOne's theology is decidedly not taken from the teachings of Christ. If it were, he would not insist on contradicting Christ's very clear teachings... It's fascinating to me to see how someone can contradict Jesus Christ so blatantly..."
You cite the following quote from Jesus to support your claim:
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, [b]out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
I fail to see how your quotes from me "blatantly contradicts" your quote from Jesus.[/b]
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You "fail" to see it, because you don't want to see it. The quotes I provided CLEARLY show that you are contradicting Jesus. How? Because you claim time and time again that human beings are born with the Holy Spirit, but Jesus says that only those who believe in Him shall receive the Holy Spirit. Are you right? Or is Jesus? Which is it?
22 Oct 07
Originally posted by NemesioThe Spirit definitely can and does descend upon an unbeliever, but for the purpose of convicting their hearts of sin and revealing Jesus Christ. The "infilling" of the Spirit, though, is reserved only for those who believe. It is the infilling of the Holy Spirit which sanctifies a person and allows them to do the works of God.
To be clear:
You agree that the Bible doesn't exclude the possibility that the Spirit can descend upon an
'unbeliever,' right?
Nemesio
22 Oct 07
"Ultimately Jesus is not a person." -- ThinkOfOne, Thread 69378
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"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world" (1 John 4:1-3).
22 Oct 07
Originally posted by telerionSo...when the game stops being fun...when one dies...
Don't stress about it too much. It's only make believe after all. When the game stops being fun, you've gotta put it down for a while.
...you've got to put the game down for a while...forever...
And so living under that "assumption" really makes one value the life that one really has...and so "the truth will make you free"...
...free to live a life unrestricted by faith...
"You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32).
^^^That's a very interesting statement. 🙂
22 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhere does the Bible exclude the 'infilling' of the Spirit on the unbeliever?
The Spirit definitely can and does descend upon an unbeliever, but for the purpose of convicting their hearts of sin and revealing Jesus Christ. The "infilling" of the Spirit, though, is reserved only for those who believe. It is the infilling of the Holy Spirit which sanctifies a person and allows them to do the works of God.
Nemesio
22 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehas[/b]Do you even read or attempt to understand what's written? Or do you just pull out phrases that support your preconceived notions?
[b]Once again you've given more examples of how you allow your preconceived notions to distort what you read:
You said:
"Instead, he claims that all people are born with the Holy Spirit already in their hearts and [b]all that is needed is for them to perform good works..."
Then you cited several posts of mine to prove your point.
The ive the Holy Spirit. Are you right? Or is Jesus? Which is it?[/b]
Let's go really slowly and step-by-step.
Here's the phrase in question:
"...all that is needed is for them to perform good works..."
First of all, in your initial selection of quotes from me, "works" ("good" or otherwise) were never mentioned or even implied.
If you understand this, please respond by repeating it back to me in your own words.
22 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhat's your point here? Are you going to pull phrases out of context and try to prove something?
"[b]Ultimately Jesus is not a person." -- ThinkOfOne, Thread 69378
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"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh ...[text shortened]... ntichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world" (1 John 4:1-3).[/b]
That's right, you've been doing that all along.