08 Jan 20
@fmf saidFuel injection cut off - chrome plated rods, oh yeah
What evidence do you have to show that your own "spirit" is running like a six-cylinder car and not a four-cylinder one?
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10 Jan 20
I don't know who originally said something about a God shaped vacuum in man.
But one thing is pretty sure. For one who doesn't want to believe in God or in any NEED for God, evidence of the human spirit is likely to never satisfy.
When I am asked, what is the evidence of a human spirit distinct from man's soul, it is not an easy matter to prove in some mathematically precise way.
But I think of the myriads of poetry, songs, novels, films, art, and philosophy which in so many words testifies that many people have a longing within for something which they feel should complete human life more.
What comes to mind from earlier days is a song by Jimi Hindrex which many, I think, could identify with. "I Don't Live Today"
The lyrics roughly say this -
When I live, I just don't know. But I am pretty sure - I Don't Live Today. I feel like I am living in the bottom of a grave. I don't live today. I don't live today."
I say this is the crying out of a man who in in need of the regeneration of his human spirit. SOMETHING is MISSING he knows. But he doesn't know what it is. And he doesn't feel like his human life is really complete today.
But chemical or mathematical evidence of a human spirit in man? That is hard or impossible for me to furnish.
I know music so I take not of what musicians say. Not only Hendrix uttered something like this but even classical composer Franze Schubert said something like this - [i] "Sometimes I feel like I don't belong to this world at all."
I think this is a similar utterance of a man who feels SOMETHING is not complete, SOMETHING is not altogether real about his life in the world.
Buddhist say the world is an illusion. I think they say so because they sense that something is missing in them in the perception of reality. I say this is the sense of the need for a deeper living.
This deeper living is the purpose of the human spirit - it is deeper than the human soul. It is deeper in us then the mind, emotion, and will and certainly the physical body.
10 Jan 20
@sonship saidSigh.
I don't know who originally said something about a God shaped vacuum in man.
But one thing is pretty sure. For one who doesn't want to believe in God or in any NEED for God, evidence of the human spirit is likely to never satisfy.
When I am asked, what is the evidence of a human spirit distinct from man's soul, it is not an easy matter to prove in some mathematically ...[text shortened]... the human soul. It is deeper in us then the mind, emotion, and will and certainly the physical body.
As an atheist, it is not a case of me 'not wanting' to believe. I simply 'don't believe.' (You also casually, and probably deliberately, misrepresent the Buddhist position).
There is no God-shaped hole in me. God is your weakness (rather like being a smoker), not mine.
11 Jan 20
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidBelieving in God is pretty unlikely to cause lung cancer. I think there's some evidence of health benefits, including mental health benefits. So I don't think describing it as a weakness is appropriate. I agree that the notion that one can choose to believe something is somewhat patronizing as it implies that we do believe really, we're just being intransigent children. Really it ought to be a question of whether our minds are closed to the notion or not. The "effort of will" argument seems to be off-putting which @sonship might want to think about.
Sigh.
As an atheist, it is not a case of me 'not wanting' to believe. I simply 'don't believe.' (You also casually, and probably deliberately, misrepresent the Buddhist position).
There is no God-shaped hole in me. God is your weakness (rather like being a smoker), not mine.
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11 Jan 20
5 edits
As an atheist,
I have not forgotten.
it is not a case of me 'not wanting' to believe. I simply 'don't believe.' (You also casually, and probably deliberately, misrepresent the Buddhist position).
Well, I hear you. However above I wrote that everything we do with the soul involves all three functions of the soul - the mind, the emotion, and the will.
The mind of the soul considers.
In conjunction with that the emotions of the soul likes or dislikes.
In conjunction with that the will of the soul chooses or rejects.
Now I do not mean that without God anyone can draw forward to touch God.
But I do mean that if you think your emotion and your will are not ALSO involved in taking up a position concerning God and you, you're kidding yourself.
Many skeptics would of course like to think of themselves as pure cerebral thinking entities only, something like the fictional Mr. Spock of Star Trek. But the emotion of the soul and the choosing / deciding will of the soul are involved also in this matter.
Having said all this, I would add honestly my experience. I have spoken of man having a sense of something missing deep within our being when our spirit is not regenerated. This is not obvious with many people. Some people have a innate happy soul. Some people seem to have happy genes so to speak. And it is NOT obvious with some people that they are presently or perhaps not YET presently aware of the need for the spiritual.
Plenty people would chuckle, at least public-ally, at the statement that there is something missing within them which is the spiritual dimension of a human spirit. My own experience is that one can go through considerable spans of human life with apparently no thought at all that in their soul and body is ALL they need. I'm reminded also of C. S. Lewis's days as an atheist, saying that the thought of him searching for God then would have been like a mouse searching for a cat.
I expect that some would scoff at the idea of being incomplete in this way.
Ie.
There is no God-shaped hole in me. God is your weakness (rather like being a smoker), not mine.
I think, God allows a certain period of time when you are seemingly happy without the spirit. That is His love for you also.
11 Jan 20
@deepthought saidNo, I stand by the comparison.
Believing in God is pretty unlikely to cause lung cancer. I think there's some evidence of health benefits, including mental health benefits. So I don't think describing it as a weakness is appropriate. I agree that the notion that one can choose to believe something is somewhat patronizing as it implies that we do believe really, we're just being intransigent children ...[text shortened]... ot. The "effort of will" argument seems to be off-putting which @sonship might want to think about.
For many, religion is a way of coping with their woes and maintains the status quo of social injustice, with people seeking salvation in the next life rather than this one. People are 'stronger' when they are self-sufficient and have come to terms with such things as mortality.
People reach for a cigarette through a similar weakness. It's a comfort, a crutch. They are better off, physically and mentally, when they quit.
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11 Jan 20
2 edits
For many, religion is a way of coping with their woes and maintains the status quo of social injustice, with people seeking salvation in the next life rather than this one. People are 'stronger' when they are self-sufficient and have come to terms with such things as mortality.
People reach for a cigarette through a similar weakness. It's a comfort, a crutch. They are better off, physically and mentally, when they quit.
So how far will you now take that though?
It being true to an extent, is it true to every extent without any possible exceptions?
How far will you ride your critique? With Jesus Christ do we also have a person who - " religion is a way of coping with their woes and maintains the status quo of social injustice, with people seeking salvation in the next life rather than this one. People are 'stronger' when they are self-sufficient and have come to terms with such things as mortality. "
Should we ride your analogy to apply it also to Jesus ?
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11 Jan 20
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For many, religion is a way of coping with their woes and maintains the status quo of social injustice, with people seeking salvation in the next life rather than this one. People are 'stronger' when they are self-sufficient and have come to terms with such things as mortality.
Many humanitarian outreaches of Western culture are rooted in Judeao/Christian ethics or theology. This would be true of the first educational institutions in the US. Comparatively fewer humanitarian services, I think, have a strong atheistic underpinnings.
We hear about "Faith based" humanitarian services in the US more than "Atheist based" ones.
11 Jan 20
@sonship saidI think we should take it on a person by person basis.
@Ghost-of-a-DukeFor many, religion is a way of coping with their woes and maintains the status quo of social injustice, with people seeking salvation in the next life rather than this one. People are 'stronger' when they are self-sufficient and have come to terms with such things as mortality.
So how far will you now take that though?
It being true to an extent, is it true to every extent without any possible exceptions?
I think Ghost of a Duke and I might disagree slightly on this point.
However, having said that, he did start his sentence with "For many, religion is a way of coping...", so perhaps that word "many" affects the meaning of the words that follow, including the bit that begins "People are 'stronger' when they are...".
My loss of faith made me neither stronger nor weaker. I believe I am a 'stronger person' now than I was 20 years ago because of experience and reflection, but I don't think it has anything to do with being or not being a Christian.
11 Jan 20
@sonship saidI don't begrudge anyone their faith, if they feel they draw strength from it. I have spoken before of my nan who did just that and I never sought to undermine that faith.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
[quote] For many, religion is a way of coping with their woes and maintains the status quo of social injustice, with people seeking salvation in the next life rather than this one. People are 'stronger' when they are self-sufficient and have come to terms with such things as mortality.
People reach for a cigarette through a similar weakness. It's a comf ...[text shortened]... ms with such things as mortality. " [/i]
Should we ride your analogy to apply it also to Jesus ?
This doesn't alter my belief however that religion is akin to smoking, or as Marx saw it, the opium of the masses. In general, it puts a plaster on the problem and gets in the way of genuine healing.
11 Jan 20
@sonship saidHumanitarianism, at its best, is driven by man, for man.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
For many, religion is a way of coping with their woes and maintains the status quo of social injustice, with people seeking salvation in the next life rather than this one. People are 'stronger' when they are self-sufficient and have come to terms with such things as mortality.
Many humanitarian outreaches of Western culture are rooted ...[text shortened]... s.
We hear about "Faith based" humanitarian services in the US more than "Atheist based" ones.
11 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSigh.
Sigh.
As an atheist, it is not a case of me 'not wanting' to believe. I simply 'don't believe.' (You also casually, and probably deliberately, misrepresent the Buddhist position).
There is no God-shaped hole in me. God is your weakness (rather like being a smoker), not mine.
You misunderstand the inference of the "God-shaped hole" meaning.
If man was created by God, in His "image and likeness", then for man to fail to recognize, in himself, what he is made of, he is fundamentally flawed at his core.
I said "if". "If" man was created, then theoretically his nature carries in it the impression of his maker. And "if" that is true, then it follows logically that when a man fails to identify that imprint on every fiber of his being, there is in fact a "hole" or vacuum, as it were, at his core, i.e. his spirit.