13 Apr 21
@sonship saidJust because you'd like something to be true doesn't make it so. How we'd like existence to be really has no bearing at all on how it actually is.
Yea avalanch. But with the Christian revelation there is a last judgment.
There is a final accounting for both the saved and the unsaved.
There is that no one is getting away with anything.
But with your atheist system both bad atheists and bad theists will only melt peacefully into the dust of the earth. Like Adolf Eichmann said - he would jump into his grave lau ...[text shortened]... [/b]
God starts correcting and judging with those who are suppose to have known better.
See?
13 Apr 21
@sonship saidYou asked why we haven't evolved to be able to not do things which trouble our conscience. I explained why our understanding of the process of evolution as we understand it would not do that. What has that got to do with why we think people shouldn't murder each other? Are you suggesting that we shouldn't have any laws because evolution hasn't made us all perfect and lovely?
That indeed sounds like survival of the fittest. Ethics be damned in the final analysis.
Social Darwinism went out of favor with the scandal of eugenics and genocides
You're saying evolution could not care less about truth. Only survival value means anything.
Then on what basis did the other nations have a right to put the Nazis on trial for crimes against humanity? Pressures upon them called for them murdering 6 million human beings.
@sonship saidMeanwhile, with your torturer God system, how many millions of Jews went from being murdered in the gas chambers to being tortured in burning flames for eternity for not believing in Jesus?
But with your atheist system both bad atheists and bad theists will only melt peacefully into the dust of the earth. Like Adolf Eichmann said - he would jump into his grave laughing at what he got away with.
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Meanwhile, with your torturer God system, how many millions of Jews went from being murdered in the gas chambers to being tortured in burning flames for eternity for not believing in Jesus?
"Torturer God" I think is the accusation against God who in His faithfulness and truthfulness gives man a heads up that he is not going to enjoy an existence in eternity choosing to have nothing to do with Him.
Being apart from God may be the hope of paradise for some.
In terms which are impossible to misunderstand, God, knowing all, warns us that
" You are not going to enjoy such a chosen destiny. "
I do not claim to know with infallibility the eternal situation of all those executed Jews. Just as there is some unknowns to me in such passages which indicate a level of God's awareness of all circumstances which give rise to the expectation of surprises.
For example:
Matt. 10:15 - "Truly I say to you, It will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."
Matt. 11:24 - "But I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of Judgment then for you."
Matt. 12:41 - "Ninevite men will stand up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something more than Jonah is here."
Matt. 12:42 - "The queen of the [south] will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something more than Solomon is here."
The accumulative effect of passages like this suggests that with ultimate judgment of mankind the entire scope of circumstances is known by God yet cannot be known by us.
So while we are commissioned to preach the gospel we are also not told of all the circumstances and situations which will go into God assigning culpability.
I expect to be shocked at the divine wisdom.
I do not expect to be shocked by the Almighty's incompetence.
All in all I put no trust in the prospect that God will turn out to be not too swift, and needing His creatures to educate Him on where He is bungling it up. I think the thought of an incompetent eternal Judge is mistake. I cannot see a perplexed
God needing His creatures to come along side and tutor Him on where He didn't quite think things through well enough.
I agree with Abraham when he boldly examined God before His destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
"Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?" (Gen. 18:24)
@sonship saidThe term "torturer God ideology", I think, accurately and aptly describes the stuff you propagate here. It's a descriptive term, not an accusation.
"Torturer God" I think is the accusation against God who in His faithfulness and truthfulness gives man a heads up that he is not going to enjoy an existence in eternity choosing to have nothing to do with Him.
14 Apr 21
@avalanchethecat saidA cannibalistic serial killer is basically a cat or a dog -- man's best friends!
Devil's Advocating here, but what about, say, a cannibalistic serial killer?
But if I saw a human killing and eating children in my neighborhood, my reaction would be to remove them permanently. The next step would be to remove the conditions that cause a person to become a killer to prevent or minimize this from happening again.
14 Apr 21
@sonship saidSo now you are saying that you believe people can reject Jesus and still be "saved"?
I do not claim to know with infallibility the eternal situation of all those executed Jews. Just as there is some unknowns to me in such passages which indicate a level of God's awareness of all circumstances which give rise to the expectation of surprises.
Matt. 10:15 -
Matt. 11:24 -
Matt. 12:41 -
Matt. 12:42 -
The accumulative effect of passages like ...[text shortened]... ate judgment of mankind the entire scope of circumstances is known by God yet cannot be known by us.
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14 Apr 21
2 edits
@FMF
I believe that God knows the difference between "reject Jesus" and ignorance.
I believe God knows the difference between turning away from idolatry and the turning away from Christ.
I have expounded before to the considerable opposition of Rajk999, Matthew 25:31-46. I have argued that these sheep nations did not know who Christ was. Yet they enter into the millennial kingdom as nations over whom the sons of God will reign.
I don't think the bible can be 100% systematized.
Some may claim to be able to systematize it 100%. I do not claim to be able to do that. Nor do I think God expects me to be able to systematize it 100%. What He has shown me He wants me to trust and obey.
Many unbelievers diligently seek out "bugs" in the "program" as comfort factors to not believe. I don't think that is wise, to use perceived bugs in the "flowchart" furnishing them with mistrust and unbelief to the plainer messages coming to them from the Bible.
14 Apr 21
@sonship saidSo how does this apply to the 6,000,000 Jews who died in the Holocaust? The reason we are talking about this, by the way, is because you mentioned Adolf Eichmann, who, according to your ideology, may have been spared eternal damnation.
I believe that God knows the difference between "reject Jesus" and ignorance.
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14 Apr 21
Another thing I ask myself sometimes:
How do I know that in comparison to the joy of full salvation today is "torment"?
I can conceive of an ecstasy unknown now which compared to today would make one realize - "I was being tormented all that time in comparison to this."
Speculation. At any rate I preach and share the good news.
The "failed evangelist" ploy or "where's the perfect flowchart?" won't cause me to stop sharing the good news.
14 Apr 21
@sonship saidIs it God that wants you to assert that Christian churches are organizations of "Satan"?
I don't think the bible can be 100% systematized.
Some may claim to be able to systematize it 100%. I do not claim to be able to do that. Nor do I think God expects me to be able to systematize it 100%. What He has shown me He wants me to trust and obey.
14 Apr 21
@sonship saidDo you see yourself - here in this community - as being an evangelist who has "failed"? It's interesting that you have chosen to introduce the word "failed" into our exchange. It wasn't me. All I asked you was: "How many people here do you think you have converted to your brand of Christianity?" And then you became all prickly and defensive and started using the word "failed".
The "failed evangelist" ploy or "where's the perfect flowchart?" won't cause me to stop sharing the good news.
14 Apr 21
@sonship saidI see no harm in you thinking this about yourself. But how does it address anything that has been put to you about moral compasses, i.e. the OP?
I can conceive of an ecstasy unknown now which compared to today would make one realize - "I was being tormented all that time in comparison to this."
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14 Apr 21
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The term "torturer God ideology", I think, accurately and aptly describes the stuff you propagate here. It's a descriptive term, not an accusation.
I'll just have to accept that FMF.
"Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord. Nor of me [Paul] His prisoner. But suffer evil with the gospel according to the power of God." (2 Tim. 1:8)
How do you know that just as the saved are in eternity made more and more like Christ, conversely the unsaved are made more and more like their leader Satan?
Suppose one who disbelieves the Gospel dies. He sees he is in a realm awaiting the last judgment. But he also sees that the enemies of God, as long as they prevail they can stall that time from arriving. Like the demons who said to Jesus -
"And behold, they [the demons] cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us?" (Matt. 8:29)
They knew that a time of their punishment was coming.
They wanted to prolong its arrival.
It would be tragic that the spirit of a man in Hades finds himself going from what he thought was neutral to wishing, rooting, hoping Satan can delay the last Judgement. This would be hoping for the Devil's success.
My point is I have a suspicion sometimes that to reject Christ would put into process after death a cascade of becoming more and more sympathetic to God's ultimate enemy.
The saved become conformed to the image of Christ the Firstborn Son. (Rom. 8:29) Maybe the lost in eternity become more and more like Satan until they match him in every attitude.
It is better to pray "Lord Jesus, I receive Your mercy. I receive Your dying for my salvation. Help my unbelief Lord."
14 Apr 21
@sonship saidWhat are your answers to these two questions? I have answered both.
Tell me:
On what basis did the nations have any right to conduct the Nuremberg trials against the former Nazis?
What gave other communities the authority to pass judgment on the Nazis that their community committed crimes against humanity?