Spirituality
24 Mar 19
24 Mar 19
@secondson saidCalJust asked KellyJay this: What I meant when I said: do not just say “Jesus is the Truth,” but what it actually MEANS TO YOU that Jesus is the Truth. How do you live? How does it affect your choices, etc.?
You're just being trite. Kellyjay's answer, "Living life with Jesus Christ", to the question, "what does “Living in the Truth” mean to you?", isn't "bumperstickerism".
It's a clear and concise answer to the question, but because you don't agree with it you trivialize the answer by the fallacious use of the word bumperstickerism.
In light of that, I'd say an answer like this...
Living life with Jesus Christ
...is trite because it doesn't offer any of the substance CalJust asked for ~ a request to which KellyJay was ostensibly responding.
"Living life with Jesus Christ" is about as bumper-stickery as one can get.
It's just a slogan.
24 Mar 19
@fmf saidNobody's saying it's unhealthy to doubt uncertainties.
When it comes to the truth of things, I also think doubt is a healthy thing and not something we should seek to expunge.
I think the 'certainties' and 'truths' that ideologies give us basically seek to do away with doubt and therefore do away with curiosity and perspective as well.
But why would one "doubt" what they know is Truth?
You're confusing the debate with uncertain assertions. If you know no Truth, then you're confined to doubt and uncertainty, which in turn disrupts perspective and squelches curiosity.
Without a basis in Truth one is stuck in the quagmire of doubt, uncertainty and instability.
24 Mar 19
@secondson saidI did. Carefully. And I see exact;y what you said. Whether you meant to say it, that's another matter.
Apparently you didn't read my post.
You mentioned the Truth, with your capital T, in terms of questions like 'How did everything get here?' 'Is there a creator God?'
And then you went on to say "Truth..." [again with your capital T], "...in that sense, is embodied in something intangible"
At the end, you said "For the Truth [capital T again] to be made tangible it must be embodied in the tangible, or it will remain intangible and unknowable"
So, I am asking you, why would anyone want to take "intangible and unknowable" things and attempt to render them "tangible". That's altering them. That's changing them from "intangible" to "tangible".
And that sounds like subscribing to speculation and conjecture in answer to your needs; your need for things to be "tangible" even if they are, in fact, "intangible".
It sounds like piecing together something to have "faith" in.
It doesn't sound like a search-for-the-truth type process.
24 Mar 19
@fmf saidYou're trivializing a perfectly clear answer to a simple question.
CalJust asked KellyJay this: What I meant when I said: do not just say “Jesus is the Truth,” but what it actually MEANS TO YOU that Jesus is the Truth. How do you live? How does it affect your choices, etc.?
In light of that, I'd say an answer like this...
Living life with Jesus Christ
...is trite because it doesn't offer any of the substance CalJust asked ...[text shortened]...
"Living life with Jesus Christ" is about as bumper-stickery as one can get.
It's just a slogan.
Calling it a slogan is silly deflecting away from a Truth you obviously don't share and are unable to refute with a reasoned argument.
24 Mar 19
@secondson saidNo, fmf is absolutely right when he called KJ’s comment “bumperstickerism”.
You're just being trite. Kellyjay's answer, "Living life with Jesus Christ", to the question, "what does “Living in the Truth” mean to you?", isn't "bumperstickerism".
It's a clear and concise answer to the question, but because you don't agree with it you trivialize the answer by the fallacious use of the word bumperstickerism.
Because it means nothing. Just words. Ten different people could (and do!) use the exact same phrase and mean radically different things.
For example, Mormons use it all the time. I know you do not believe that they have the Truth.
So, to Secondson and Kelly Jay, does “living life with Jesus” (if you are serious about this phrase) mean that you live as he lived, or at least live what he preached? ( see e.g. Matt 5,6&7)
@secondson saidBecause we can only speculate about supernatural things.
But why would one "doubt" what they know is Truth?
You are using the word "know" merely to signal your certainty and your sincerity.
People of all manner of religions and philosophies claim "what they know is Truth".
Theres' that word "know" again. It's just them signalling the strength of their convictions when in fact they are talking about a realm filled with "intangible and unknowable" things..
Doubt is healthy. Doctrine and ideology seek to restrict and end the search for truths in our lives and do not seek to open our minds. Ideology is the enemy of doubt. Doubt fosters curiosity and sharpens our critical faculties.
24 Mar 19
@SecondSon
Would you say that you and KJ have a full understanding of the truth, and anybody who does not agree with you is in error?
24 Mar 19
@secondson saidThe five words "Living life with Jesus Christ" are not even a complete sentence, let alone "a reasoned argument".
You're trivializing a perfectly clear answer to a simple question.
Calling it a slogan is silly deflecting away from a Truth you obviously don't share and are unable to refute with a reasoned argument.
@CalJust
Here is another example to elaborate what I mean by the statement Living in Truth.
For years I was a devout (and I would almost say fanatical) supporter of YECreationism and the literal interpretation of the Bible. I would speak at youth camps about the six days and against evolution. In fact, if you can retrieve my early posts in this forum from about 2005 to 2009, you will find some very elegant, and I might humbly add persuasive, arguments for YEC.
Yet I was living a lie.
I was also a scientist, and knew with an unwavering clarity, that the entire scientific establishment cannot be “in” on this fraud and deception. Just like “normal” people cannot believe that the moon landings were a hoax (because of the huge number of people that were involved who would not all willingly lie to protect this fraud) so I could not possibly imagine that all of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Geology, Genetics (and a host of other sciences) were all being manipulated by atheists in order to hide the truth.
So I compartmentalised my life. The Christian in me toed the party line and agreed with the sacred version, but the scientist in me said: it cannot possibly be true, but “one day” we will all understand, don’t worry about it now.
Until one day I decided to live in the truth, and stop being a schizophrenic. You cannot imagine the relief (maybe fmf can) when I jettisoned the archaic, medieval doctrinal interpretations and welcomed reality. I was free.
As I said before, even if you “live in the truth”, that truth may change over time according to one’s learning and understanding.
But at least today I live openly and honestly in the way that I believe is right for me. No more fooling myself and hiding it.
24 Mar 19
@secondson saidDoubt and uncertainty are not confining.
If you know no Truth, then you're confined to doubt and uncertainty, which in turn disrupts perspective and squelches curiosity.
They provide a basis for open-mindedness.
@caljust saidTo understand what is Living in truth one needs to understand what is meant by living in lies as well. Living in truth is living according to the commandments of Christ the chief of which is to love others.
The comment was made in the “Peace” thread about living in truth.
What does that mean to you? As Pilate said: “What is Truth”?
If at all possible, be practical and specific, don’t just mouth religious words like “Jesus is the Truth” .
Also, a heartfelt plea to try to keep this thread free from personal abuse.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:42-47 KJV)
Those who are of God follow Christ and thereby live in truth. Those who are of the Devil cannot hear Christ and live in sin.
24 Mar 19
@caljust saidYou're being ridiculous. You asked a question and kelly gave you his honest answer.
No, fmf is absolutely right when he called KJ’s comment “bumperstickerism”.
Because it means nothing. Just words. Ten different people could (and do!) use the exact same phrase and mean radically different things.
For example, Mormons use it all the time. I know you do not believe that they have the Truth.
So, to Secondson and Kelly Jay, does “living life with Jesus” ...[text shortened]... is phrase) mean that you live as he lived, or at least live what he preached? ( see e.g. Matt 5,6&7)
And now, you and FMF seek to trivialize and diminish the answer by use of the term "bumperstickerism" simply because you can't come up with anything better.
If you don't believe Jesus Christ is a viable way to "living in the Truth", then by all means produce an alternative, but please don't assault mine or kelly's intelligence with accusations of "bumperstickerism" as an argument. It proves nothing.
"Also, a heartfelt plea to try to keep this thread free from personal abuse." The use of the term 'bumperstickerism' to refute the personal belief of a poster is abussive. imo